OT---Blending waste and heating oil for use in a boiler

snip--


Yes, we see that quite clearly in you standing your position without considering that others, too, have one. Some of your comments show you to be the moron many of us think you are.

What is it, you don't understand things you read? At what point did I ask for *advice*?
Unless I'm mistaken, I asked for *comments*-------and I have yet to read anywhere that I'm bound to follow them. I wanted opinions----and I got several of them. Most folks are kind enough to share what they know----you want to force feed me what you *know* you know, but I think you need to go back to the books and learn more about oil burners, and especially something about talking with people. You, sir, are not the "all knowing" individual you think you are. I encountered a guy like you when I was trying to learn the art of precious metal refining. He laughed in my face and told me "I'd never do it". Two years later I had captured the bulk of his refining customers------and went on to retire, selling what had become a very fine business. Yeah, I want to listen to people like you that stifle thinking-------after all, they know *everything*.

Must really suck to be you-----having never achieved anything in your life-----and tossing a wet blanket on everyone you encounter. Most of us know your type----make the other guy look as stupid as you look, so you look good by comparison. Find someone else to badger----you've taken all the ride you're going to get off my back..

You obviously do NOT know me----not at all. I'm very capable of admitting my mistakes------and do my share of *admitting*. I simply don't allow people that see everything negatively to get in the way of my decision making. You, sir, are a boor, and I have nothing more to say to you. Hmphh! $1.50 nozzles! You obviously have never purchased one-----
Now run along and play in the quicksand.
Harold
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I find it more-than-a-little paranoid that you should lash out at me in particular when I am only echoing many of the comments made by others questioning the intelligence of running waste oil through a system that was not designed for it.
Why are you so afraid of what I have to say in particular?
Have you already run into problems with the local authorities for handling so much waste oil?
What nerve have I touched?
Or, are you just pissed off that so many people think that your idea isn't quite as bright as you would like to believe - and I was the next post you came across?
Go ahead.....
Go back through the posts on this thread, and you'll find that others have "commented" just as negatively on your pet project as I have...........
..............yet, you feel compelled to take a swipe at me.
Is it because you know - deep down in your heart - that you are making a big mistake that will cost much more than it will save?
What, exactly IS your problem?
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Nope. I would bet he takes a swipe at you because he thinks you are deserving of the swipe.

I suspect he doesn't suffer fools very well.
--

__
Roger Shoaf

Important factors in selecting a mate:
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the
oil
Gosh, if the $1.50 nozzle gets scrapped after a couple of hundred gallons of free waste oil is substituted for $3.00 a gallon diesel, that sounds to me like a great deal.
Besides how much precision do you get for a $1.50 anyway?
If the pump suffers, I betcha Harold might kinow a thing or two about overhauling a stinking oil pump. And after he is done it will probably work better than it did from the factory.
--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.
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work
I'll bet you've never even seen the inside of a vane-type oil burner pump.
Once the housing is all scored by abrasives going through, it's cheaper to replace the pump.......and THAT ain't necessarily cheap!
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I've seen the innards of one. What's supposed to be so hard about fixing it?
--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net

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well nozzles cost a bit more than $1.50, but that's not the point. They are precision atomizers, much more than a piece of bar stock with a hole in the middle as you might imagine. They create the spray angle, spray pattern, and meter the fuel. There are thousands of nozzles , each one designed for a specific burner/boiler combo, as the spray pattern must fit the combustion chamber. If you think its a simple task to atomize fuel oil into 50 micron droplets think again.
http://www.hagonozzles.com/index.shtml
Here is another good link if your really curious about how critical nozzles and quality fuel are, and then see if you think running waste oil is a good idea.
http://www.hagonozzles.com/education-technical-corner.shtml
Is Harold going to rebuild his fuel pump? I doubt it. Where is he going to get spare parts, they are not commonly available. He seems to know not that much about his oil burner at all. How is the pump setup? Whats a 2 pipe system vs. a one pipe system. Is the bypass plug installed, and where is it.? What's a "A" pump vs. a "B" pump vs. a "J" pump? Does he even have pressure & vacuum gauges? Has he ever changed the pump strainer before? Does he have a bench where he can test the pump under load to see if it's performing? How will he check the pump cutoff valve? What does that even do?
If you can't anwser those questions you'll have difficulty rebuilding a pump, not mention even replacing one.
Pump failure aside, the bigger problem will be burner shutdown due to hight vacuum at the pump.
Tony

work
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Waste oil leaves a lot of ash to clean out. We get a five gallon pail full every month out of the chamber of the one at the garage I'm working at.
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no
Generally speaking the heating oil on the East Coast runs about 2000 ppm,and that is slated to come down to 500ppm. Sulphur content of waste oil/lubricating oil is double or in excess of 5000ppm. The heavy metal content of waste oil also has corrosive effects, particularily the vanadium. Have you been burning waste oil for 6 years now? And what shape will the iron sections be when subjected to the acidic flue gas from waste oil.
Compounds of oxygen, nitrogen, calcium, chlorine, sodium, potassium and vanadium may also play a role sometimes in very complex relationships. This is particularly true of high-temperature corrosion, i.e., steam generator tubes operating at temperatures of 400C to 650C, in the presence of molten ash and oxides. Under these conditions even highly alloyed steels may suffer catastrophic corrosionCompounds of oxygen, nitrogen, calcium, chlorine, sodium, potassium and vanadium may also play a role sometimes in very complex relationships. This is particularly true of high-temperature corrosion, i.e., steam generator tubes operating at temperatures of 400C to 650C, in the presence of molten ash and oxides. Under these conditions even highly alloyed steels may suffer catastrophic corrosion"Compounds of oxygen, nitrogen, calcium, chlorine, sodium, potassium and vanadium may also play a role sometimes in very complex relationships. This is particularly true of high-temperature corrosion, i.e., steam tubes operating at temperatures of 400C to 650C, in the presence of molten ash and oxides. Under these conditions even highly alloyed steels may suffer catastrophic corrosion. Vanadium can also play a significant role in high- temperature corrosion and is of interest because it is a major constituent in the ash of residual oils. "
Waste oil contains large concentrations of heavy metals, that will react in your oil tank to form sludge (even after you filtered it). That is why additive packages for heating oil contain metal deactivatiors.
You propose to add chemically unstable oil of higher viscosity and flash point, laden with heavy metals and carbon, into your oil tank with good oil. Keep in mind even good quality heating oil has a "shelf life". It has to sit in your tank for months before it is burned, and is subject to condensation/water accumulation, baterial growth, and catalytic reaction with metals in contact with the fuel, or suspended in the fuel. All of these items cause sludge formation in your tank. Sludge in the tank not only messes up the tank, but coats the interior of the oil lines leading to the burner like hardening of the arteries. The pump vacuum will go higher and higher until the pump fails. I get the feeling this is a buried tank, so digging up the oil lines is another future consideration.
You also don't mention how you blend the waste oil and #2. If you just dump waste oil in the tank, it will stratify at the bottom. Hypothetically speaking, to properly blend the waste oil it should probably be at least 10 degF above its cloud point, or lets say around 60 degF, and blended by pumping with several tank turnovers at sufficient volume, or even better with a mixing eductor.

of
Balance of air is not the issue, using equipment designed to burn #2 with waste oil is. You think by opening the air band on the burner you get a hotter flame (the fire makes a nice roar right?) Well once you go past 12% CO2 (but you can't tell cause no instruments), you have a fire with "excess air." That means you are introducing too much air into the chamber, actually cooling the chamber. So your boiler that may be rated at 83% efficiency is now down at 70% with a excess air condition. Your savings in oil cost has been negated since your have to use more oil.
For one, I am filtering

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into
removed
Sludge in the waste oil prior to placing it in your tank is only one issue, (and how well are you filtering ? 10 microns?) The formation of sludge due to chemical reaction and bacterial action while this stuff sits in your tank in another issue.

The nozzle needs to be changed every 2 years or so depending on the burner, older burners more frequently. Why? Because coking in the nozzle (which occurs after flame shutdown) will mess up the atomization (50 micron droplet size for proper combustion). If you have never replaced the nozzle your running an efficiency defecit already. Again, with no with instruments such as a Bacherach combustion tester it's guesswork.
The pump should be even happier than it was pumping straight

Pump won't be happy pulling high vacuum from the sludge buildup in the lines and pump strainer. Of course you have a vacuum and pressure gauge , and you adjusted the pump pressure :^)
If you want to add 10 gallons of waste oil into a 1000 gallon tank and call that a success, and if adding waste oil floats your boat go for it, it's not my oil tank that's getting trashed.
Tony
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Excellent post....and excellent points!
I think you just joined me on Harold's shit list with your "smart-assed" commentary that runs contrary to what he believes to be true.......
Welcome to the club!!!! We're going to have a network meeting to discuss our secret handshake.
You, apparently, just don't understand exactly how smart he actually is........
........and how he will overcome every problem ever confronted when other, more experienced fuel oil and heating technicians and engineers attempted to do what he is ATTEMPTING to do.......
......and you, me, or others pointing this out when he has ONLY asked for "comments" has him - in his mind - "justifiably" pissed off.
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Well lets just say if it was practical to blend waste oil in #2 oil for use in residential burners, local oil dealers would have figured it out a long time ago. They could get all the free waste oil they wanted, even from their own tanker truck oil changes, blend it, and resell it for a nice profit. But it won't work, so they don't do it.
Waste oil will work in waste oil furnaces designed for that purpose. But even then its a high maintainence proposition. I have one friend/auto mechanic who has a waste oil furnace and uses #2 most of the time.

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That's the point I was trying to get across when I suggested that someone - SOMEONE - would have already come up with a scheme to sell to the unwitting consumer that involved "re-cycling" the neighborhood waste oil through "....YOUR OWN FURNACE!!!"
Many years ago - when I was a kid - there were two strong markets for waste oil in the Northeast - greenhouses and re-refiners. I had a friend who was in the business of picking up waste oil and re-selling it to the above two outlets.
There used to be a re-refiner behind the big Grossman's store in Braintree, Mass., and rose growers Pierce Brothers would buy just about all you could provide for their greenhouses in the Belmont, Mass. (IIRC) area.
Next thing you know, EPA and "Big Brother" stepped in, declared waste oil "hazardous", and, virtually overnight, put several floral greenhouses - including Pierce Brothers - and a handful of waste oil recyclers out of business with various licenses and handling requirements.
The re-refining plant in Braintree also closed.
There had been no problems whatsoever, yet "BB" decided to step up and make sure there were no problems......???

You actually need to generate a LOT of waste oil to make burning waste oil cost-efficient.
I know truck fleets, repair shops, and service stations that have legitimate waste oil burners. They do, however, generate a LOT of waste oil.
I'm beginning to wonder if the OP isn't simply trying to skirt disposal costs/issues by burning it off.......
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* wrote:

Most of the auto stores will take used oil, and my local waste disposal site also has a recycling center that takes used oil, batteries, scrap metal, newspapers, glass, and plastic.
I really only know Harold from what I read here on RCM. But he seems pretty intelligent to me. I fully expect he knows of recycling. And I believe him when he says he is just trying to figure out a way to reduce his cost of heating. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Dan
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* wrote:

No, he won't be on the shit list because he has stated his case clearly, with relevant facts and supporting information, in a neutral fashion.
You, however, come across as a total douchebag.
D
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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote in article

I looked back through the thread, and I see that Tony and I said many of the same things......
I guess my desire to remain anonymous and avoid the SPAM and viruses that are sent by individuals who interpret e-mail addresses makes me a "total douchbag......" in your esteemed opinion.
So be it......ASSHOLE!
Luckily, I don't have to kiss your ass to sleep well tonight or to make a dollar tomorrow, eh?
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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote in article

Geez!
What a great example of a moderate, reasonable, classy post - chuck full of facts, stating your case clearly, and presented in such a neutral fashion.
I just LOVE it when somebody stoops down into the gutter to tell you *he* thinks *you're* in the gutter....
How, exactly, do you think YOU just came across?
Like a "total douchbag", perhaps?
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* wrote:

Mayhap you'll realize I said you 'came across as a' vs. 'you are a'.
Its like saying 'you sounded angry when you said that'.
Your replies, however, indicate that you don't just sound like a douchebag...
D
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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote in article

full of

fashion.
*he*
I never said "you are a douchebag".......
....but I WILL call you a TROLL!
Get a life!
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Is the reason that the nozzles need to be replaced on older burners because most older burners have a hard combustion chamber?
I bought the kid a KM800 off Ebay after getting a pretty high quote from a furnace service company. I asked them what sort of instrument they used and he said a smoke spot test. How long do the oxygen sensors last? And is this dependent on how often they are used?
Inquiring minds want to know.
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The older burners usually don't have a post purge cycle, which helps to cool the nozzle and prevent coking. Also, newer burners have a solenoid operated quick cutoff valve at the pump to prevent post shutdown dripping at the nozzle.
The sensors in the combustion test equipment need to be changed on a regular basis. I'm not sure what the shelf life is, but they go bad even with non-use. The some sensors can be changed in the field, some have to go back to the factory. When a sensor is changed the unit needs to be recalibrated, usually with a test gas.
Tony

burner,
droplet
such
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