Possibly a silly question abt metalworking

Soldering is one type of welding, the strength of the weld is normally limted by the material being welded.

What may be more important is the type of metal you are using for binding the glass. I assume you use lead or a lead alloy. What about placing another sheet of glass underneath the stained glass work to support it?

Someone here will probably have done what you want to do....

Welding can get hot enough to crack glass, and the sparks can etch holes into the surface. BUT, if you mask well and use a MIG welder, you might do something heavy-duty in glass.

Alternatively, build a steel subframe and support the traditional stained glass piece in several places with it.

Only unasked questions are stupid.

-- An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. -- Sir Winston Churchill

"Dennis" wrote in news:166dnZ5MU4MJ3dvQnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@westnet.com.au:

Oh! OK, thanks, Dennis! So welding bsically applies more heat...? I tired to google this, but got deluged...

I should have been more specific in stating that I wanted tomake the table part, preferably using stainless steel - I can buy "regular steel" bits at Home Depot, but they develop a dirty coating that I assume is an oxidation layer, and would have to be painted, which I was tryingto avoid - especially since I really like the look of brushes stainless.

I have both zinc, and 60:40 zinc:lead solder. I think they'd solder stainless after flux is applied, but I don't know whether that would be enough to hold a simple table together (basically, 4 legs, wiht crossbars for stability, and a top part to hold the glass). I'm only thinking of something modestly-sized.

It might be that welding isn't as challenging as I think...?

Is ther a good "Welding for Dummies" type of book that you know of?

Thanks again!

Larry Jaques wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

THanks for your reply, Larry!

The latter is what I meant - sorry I wasn't as specific as I ought to have been. I want to make a super-simple frame table (I also described it to Dennis) of stainless steel, with an edged top (basically, an L of metal around the top into which the stained glass will placed) (possibly on top of a plexiglass underlayer for support - I just thought of that while typing this).

So four legs, wiht sross-pieces for stability (as simple as possible) with the L-shaped pieces at the top to later on hold the glass.

Sort of like a super-simple plant stand, maybe 12"X12"X36"tall.

I'm also scoping around for a good "Welding for Dummies" type of book, like the "Pasta for Dummies" (yeah, I actually bought that one, LOL!), and so on in the series.

Thanks!

The difference is in welding, the parent metal actually melts, fusing the two pieces of metal (and filler) into effectively one piece of the same kind of metal - I've read that if done right, the weld can actually be stronger than the parent metal itself.

Soldering is more like gluing: the solder merely wets the metals, which, of course, need to be hot enough to melt the solder, and they form a thin layer of alloy at the interface. A solder joint could theoretically be broken with your bare hands; the solder is only tin and lead, although I've heard that some silver-bearing solders can be quite strong.

I'd say there's at least an order of magnitude difference in the strength of the joint, if not more; and soldering takes place at hundreds of degrees, welding happens at thousands of degrees. I'd think it's safe to say that the applications are generally very different. (You wouldn't solder a cracked Franklin stove, for example, or try to weld a leaky car radiator.)

Hope This Helps! Rich

Soldering involves a different filler material and never involves melting of the parent material, and is done at low temp.

Welding always involves melting of parent material and a iller that is usually a similar metal to what is being welded.

i

No ideas on a book. Go to youtube and search for welding videos just to get an idea of the basic process. Look for MIG and TIG welding.

First you can probably do better than home depot - ideally a true steel supplier, but even mcmaster or msc will likely give you more choices and be cheaper than the rather outrageous prices of a retail store's metals rack.

Obviously welding can be fun to get into if you want to justify the purchase of the tools and have an appropriate environment to use them in. But you could probably also design the project to be bolted together (using hardware of the same alloy).

Bending the pieces may require quite a bit of thought and work and some jig fabrication, especially if you want any nice curves or want to use tubing. Depending on thickness you may want to pay someone to roll the rim for you.

It might also be worth doing the project once in cheap mild steel to "figure it out" and then do it over in stainless.

snipped-for-privacy@westnet.com.au:

Common "mild" steel is fairly easy to weld if you are good at soldering, but stainless is trickier and the equipment can be quite expensive. I suggest you sign up for a night school class. This is a skill best learned from an expert because much of it is recognizing and correcting mistakes.

jsw

Depending upon size (umbrella table) you'd probably also have to use at least one steel center support. Stained glass doesn't like to flex at all. The glazing falls out. For this application, you might use silicone caulk to glaze it.

Large stained glass pieces, such as churches have, will include several angle iron supports outside, with straps soldered into the came channel. This is talked about in many of the stained glass books on the market. Visit your local library and check all of them out. Each one has a handful of useful pages and each has different tips. Then buy the ones you can't live without.

That is small enough that you probably wouldn't need any special support, other than the acrylic.

I learned a whole lot from reading Finch's _Welder's Handbook_.

If you weren't in Indiana, I'd offer to sell you my arc welder for a buck an amp. Arc welding is handled by the little HF TIG I bought, so I don't need the SMAW unit any more. should use these things more often so I don't have to relearn welding each time I do use it.

-- An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. -- Sir Winston Churchill

On Jan 31, 12:35=A0am, beauvine wrote: =A0I'd like to make some

=A0I want to make a super-simple frame table (I also described it to

I would suggest you look for information on Silver Brazing, also known as silver soldering. It is like soldering except at temperatures above 800 degrees. It will work with stainless steel and can be done with relatively low cost. It can be very strong, so a table as you describe would be no problem.

Go to

and get the brazing book. You have to register, but it is free and well worth getting.

Dan

I'm probably going to start a huge side discussion -- but soldering ain't welding.

In welding you melt both sides of the joint together, usually with a filler. If all the metals are the same alloy, then the joint is the same alloy. Nearly always, the two pieces to be welded are basically the same metal, as is the rod (the closest 'routine' exception I can think of are two dissimilar pieces of steel that are welded using stainless as a filler).

In soldering and brazing, the two pieces you're attaching do not melt, and the filler metal is most definitely basically different (i.e. solder vs. copper, or brass vs. steel). The base metal does _not_ melt, although some of its surface may dissolve into the filler metal.

From the perspective that you're using melted metal to stick metal pieces together -- yes, they're the same thing. But they ain't the same thing.

Lead-tin allow soldering is relatively weak, silver soldering / braxing with higher temperature silver bearing alloys is stronger, and brazing with brass alloys is stronger still. The key difference between the three is the progressively higher temperatures required.

For the OP, find a local community college or tech school that has an evening "adult ed" type welding course. For minimal cost it will give you exposure to the various welding processes, the benefits and drawbacks of each and some hands on time to try them.

Welding is challenging, but is neither 'super expensive' nor dangerous if you follow some basic and well-known precautions. Welding stainless steel gets more expensive, but there's certainly ways to get it done.

If I were going to do what you want I'd make the table frame out of mild steel and paint it black. Then I'd screw a stainless top onto it, and lay the stained glass onto that. Even if I had the equipment to weld stainless steel, I'd seriously consider screwing the top onto a frame, as thin sheets have a tendency to warp when you weld them.

To weld mild steel thin wall tubing, all you need is a gas welding outfit and some skill. Stainless takes more money for equipment.

Do you live close to a community college? Our local community college not only offers welding classes, but it offers "project classes", which is really just the school throwing its workshop open for you to build what you want with their equipment, with as much help as you need from their instructor. The basic welding class will teach you how to stick metal together, and how to have welding equipment without burning your house down. The open shop class will let you go build your table with a wide range of somewhat abused tools that would take thousands of dollars to acquire by yourself.

Stained glass (and pipe organ) soldering is functionally closer to welding since the base metal melts easily.

jsw

In my estimation, it has to do with melting point. Solder has a lower melting point. A lot of welding processes use an electric arc to melt only a small area to a liquid state, whereas soldering melts more filler and base to a liquid state. Soldering allows the liquid to flow into a joint, and welding places the liquid crucible portion in an exact location. And lastly, the stiffness of any metal is a vital factor. Lead, copper, and gold are relatively soft in a cooled state, whereas lots of other metals are harder. When the joining process is complete, bending is possible in various degrees depending on the metal. Lead canes in stained glass are easily bent where a piece of angle iron is not so much so. As the length increases, the bending factor increases for all metals. Some is stiff enough to hold up weight, as steel is, and some is not, as lead is. For your project, I would use something underneath to support it, even if it is clear glass. I have not seen a lot of horizontal surface stained glass work, probably for that very reason.

Steve

Heart surgery pending? Read up and prepare. Learn how to care for a friend. Download the book.

If you're using lead cameing, I guess. If you're using copper cameing then no -- the copper doesn't get close to its melting temperature.

You certainly can't transfer much that you learn from soldering to welding, except for general metalworking and the importance of cleanliness to a sound joint.

Are pipe organ pipes made out of lead, then?

Common "mild" steel is fairly easy to weld if you are good at soldering, but stainless is trickier and the equipment can be quite expensive. I suggest you sign up for a night school class. This is a skill best learned from an expert because much of it is recognizing and correcting mistakes.

jsw

reply: You can set up a relatively inexpensive SS rig, and learn how to do it yourself. All you need is a DC welding rig, a bottle, regulator, TIG torch, consumables, and some SS. After that, your talent will take you where it will. It is not rocket science, and for you might be just what you are looking for.

Steve

Heart surgery pending? Read up and prepare. Learn how to care for a friend. Download the book.

Soldering *does not* melt the base metal, it only melts the filler. The same applies to brazing.