A modest proposal... or Jerry Irvine saves the Universe

The real reason is most elections have precisely as many candidates as positions and in the rare case somebody contests a seat it is someone who just took a break for a year or two and election results are of little import so 75 voters is fine.

What you do NOT see at NAR is contested elections with real platforms. Ever.

Jerry

POINT!

POINT!

POINT!

POINT!

This should be in the FAQ!

- iz

not quite, Bob

Shockie is saying that it is a reasonable expectation that the NARs representative on the NFPA committee be charged with obtaining this information so that NAR can make it available to its members

he also said that as the current NFPA committee member representing NAR is apparently too busy to do so, that he would replace that person on the committee and then do so himself

Bunny's suggestion that Shockie volunteer to collect the information is unresponsive to Shockie offer; i.e.; either have the current NFPA committee member do it, or make Shockie the NFPA committee member so he can do it

- iz

this man has skilz

if we had Shockie clones presiding over TRA and NAR, S.724 would have made it to the Senate floor as originally introduced

- iz

TRA suffers from this same administrative defect, for the same reasons

- iz

Ray, do you actually possess copies of NFPA 1125 and 1127 ?

If you do not, no need to proceed

If you have ...

have you scrutinized them to identify any arbitrary or capricious constraints on rocketry administration, materials and practices ?

and have you then compared them to TRA policies both as PUBLISHED and as PRACTICED to see what is in excess of the NFPA codes ?

- iz

because it's pertinent and useful for members to know, and because NAR is ostensibly a rocketry advocacy. See bullets (b), (d), (e) and (f) below.

from NAR By-Laws (revision of 2001) at

(a) promote the safe pursuit of rocketry;

(b) establish, enforce, modify and publish standards and rules relating to the construction, operation, and safety of non-professional consumer rockets and rocket products;

(c) establish and define key safety parameters pertaining to non-professional consumer rocketry in the Safety Code(s) of the Association;

(d) prepare, collect, correlate, and disseminate by publication or otherwise facts, information, articles, books, or other literature pertaining to rocketry, and shall engage in, encourage, and promote the educational aspects of rocketry;

(e) establish and maintain means of communication with its members, committees, other functions, and its affiliates, and shall collaborate or affiliate with other organizations whether scientific or otherwise, in any manner and to any extent which, in the judgement of the Board of Trustees, will best aid in accomplishing its objectives;

(f) strive to promote and improve the image of rocketry with the general public and with all levels of government, and shall cooperate with all levels of government to the end that non-professional rocket activities may be conducted without undue restriction;

(g) encourage membership in the Association, establish local chartered sections, and promote the growth of the Association;

(h) engage in and encourage organized rocket activities as the Association or the Board of Trustees may from time to time deem necessary or desirable in connection with this article;

(i) promote an increasingly wide interest in the scientific techniques pertaining to rocketry, encourage research and experimentation; and the Association may buy, hold, or convey real and personal property to that end. ===

- iz

Ray, the questions you should be asking is why NAR does not know of this and has not already done so?

so you're not just a TRA apologist then

- iz

no, Len. If that were so, they would be voting for the incumbents to make sure they didn't lose their seats

- iz

IMO, I hear a lot of whiners whining, but few if any of the whiners running for BOD or Trustee positions.

Fred

Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed wrote:

They are breaching this provision every day and in every way by not living the 27 CFR 555.141-a-8 lifestyle UNTIL the lawsuit is resolved.

Some whiners BOTH proposed changes (which were promptly ignored) to existing clubs AND formed alternative clubs.

Jerry

This should be in the FAQ.

Hey, I resemble that remark..;)

Fred

God bless you then sir.

When I checked this URL, here's what I found

WA Regs - link not active AZ Regs - link not active NM Regs - link not active OK Regs - link not active ID Regs - link not active CO Regs - link not active WY Regs - link not active CA Regs - link not active NV Regs - link not active DE Regs - link not active DC Regs - link not active FL Regs - link not active AL Regs - link not active MA Regs - link not active NY Regs - link not active NJ Regs - link not active

TN Regs - jumps to

TX Regs - RMR post, 05 Feb 2002; status of permits for rockets unclear

MD Regs - RMR post referencing

IL Regs - RMR posts, 5 Jan 2002 , 05 Nov 2002

MN Regs - RMR Post, 4 Nov 2002

GA Regs - RMR Postings, 20 Jun 2001, 4 Nov 2002

OH-TN Regs - RMR post, 2 Nov 2002

USA - RMR Post, 28 Oct 2002

Canada - RMR Post, Fri, 26 Oct 2001

IN Regs - text of IC 22-11-14, Chapter 14. Regulation of Fireworks by Fire Marshal, 08/17/2002

OR Regs -

KY Regs - three links: (a) PDF file defining consumer and display fireworks, lists State Fire Marshall as AHJ; (b) apparently a reference to a state code labeled 227.700, specifically exempts model rockets and model rocket motors from firework regulation, (c) repeat to the first link.

Scorecard:

No references to NFPA code incorporation.

This site does not appear to provide a consistent, useful reference to state laws for NAR members and others.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org

"A closed mouth gathers no foot."

If someone's going to undertake the task of compiling useful information, here's a sample of what I would think would work for NAR members with questions about state laws impacting rockets:

NOTE: WHAT FOLLOWS IS FOR ILLUSTRATIVE PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT BASED ON ANY FACTUAL INFORMATION REGARDING PARTICULAR STATE LAWS.

• * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

ILLINOIS

NFPA Code Adoption: 1122, 1125, 1127 Adoption Method: by reference within statute Statue Reference: IL Sec 123 Online Reference:

WISCONSIN

NFPA Code Adoption: 1122 Adoption method: by text incorporation into statute Statue Reference: WI Public Act 3459 Online Reference: none available Effective Date: 12 Jun 2000 State Authority Having Jurisdiction: Office of Public Safety

• * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Compiling this depth of information will take some serious sleuthing, folks. Maintaining it will be even harder. This is why I originally posted that the time, effort and expense involved in this kind of member support is significant. Any executive director of a trade association with intensive government regulation would have told you this up front.

As Ted Cochran has pointed out, the best place for NAR members to start is by following the Safety Codes. Doing that and point to the NFPA codes, regardless of the level of their adoption within your state, will put you on as solid a piece of ground as you can be should you be confronted by local AHJ's.

In the meantime, the door's still open for any dedicated NAR member who wants to talk to me about undertaking the task of compiling information as outlined above.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org

"A closed mouth gathers no foot."

The NFPA process is fully open to public comment. NAR members who have had items they wished to present to the NFPA have been referred to Pat Miller. Pat can tell members how to properly submit the necessary paperwork to the Committee to change any and all aspects of the NFPA Codes. They're welcome to attend the Committee meeting where those proposals are addressed.

I and the NAR Board have never prevented public access to the NFPA process and cannot do so based on the rules under which they operate.

Making " flying more accessable to the general public" certainly strikes me as a platitude.

In fact, the NAR has spent its entire history convincing public safety officials that the hobby, as practiced under our codes, is a safe activity. Now apparently people perceive those codes, which when adopted, give legal protection to the hobby, as "excessive regulation".

How is it that the NAR should instead "make flying more accessable to the general public" ?

Does it make sense to abandon the code writing process, a process which enjoys the wide support of public safety officials, and if so, with what replacement?

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org

"A closed mouth gathers no foot."

This figure is roughly the same percentage of registered Iowa Democratic voters who put Kerry as the "winner" in the caccus last week. Most Democrats didn't want to go out and spend two hours talking politics with their neighbors on a cold winter night, even with the massive media exposure and that fact that they might be chosing the next President of the United States.

and

As I have pointed out in previous posts here, the NAR is not unique in this organizational and governance structure. About 60% of US non profit organizations run their affairs this way. The membership elects the Board, and the Board elects its officers. There are pros and cons to both systems.

Let's examine the active NAR committee structure currently in place:

Committees Run By Trustees (3)

American Spacemodeling M. Bundick Standards and Testing J. Kane National Events T. Barber

Committees Run by Non-Trustees (7)

Contest and Records T. Lyon Sport Services S. Lubliner Section Activities R. Schafer NARTS B. Spadafora Education V. Huegule International Affairs J. Langford NARTREK G. Scheil

I agree.

However, as can be discovered by reading about non profit organizations and volunteer management, virtually all organizations highly dependent on volunteers find that 10% of the membership provides 90% of the energy and work behind the organization. Expecting some huge wave of volunteer increase from procedural changes is, IMHO, unrealistic and not borne out by the experience of other non profits.

If that numerical principle holds for the NAR, the volunteer pool available to us is roughly 380 adult members.

We have 9 board positions, 12 possible committee chairs, about 10 Contest Board volunteer slots, three national events (NARCON,NSL, NARAM) that need a leader, a minimum of 119 section leaderships positions, over 200 TARC mentor volunteers, plus all the local launch organization posts, newsletter editors, etc. etc. to fill in order to make the organization function.

There's a clear problem here IMHO re: the capacity of the organization to take on more work and to have its programs succeed.

And those issues do not, again IMHO, have anything to do with the By Laws or the organizational structure of the Association. We will not increase the size of the membership, the quality or density of the service programs we offer, or futher protect the long term future of hobby rocketry by changing the NAR By Laws, instituting recall procedures or slapping term limits on officers or Board members.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org

"A closed mouth gathers no foot."