Another Year without Jerry certified

Well, as stated, it was from memory.

Feel free to correct my misstatements, I'd appreciate knowing what they were...

David Erbas-White

That's not the case at all Kurt. NAR has most of the same issues. Both need to move on the issues. It is just that TRA has done the most adversely block growth, where NAR is actually progressing, albeit very slowly... remember NAR used to not even support high power, which was one of the major reasons for TRA birth... so TRA is effectively the focus on higher power motors, as some of the leaders have done things that have actually harmed the hobby more than help it. It is the direction, more than the position that puts TRA in the focus. NAR will continue to exist if high power is over-regulated, but TRA might not. TRA should be, in principle, fighting for deregulated high power. Since it has not (until the lawsuit), and continues to do really arbitrary things (such as with AeroTech), then they remain the focus. TRA needs saving _the_most_. NAR will live on with or without high power. Dramatically reduced, maybe, but it would live. Not only this, the NAR does not have all the "personal vendetta" history that is very apparent with some leadership of TRA.

Again, I repeat, I am not on a witchhunt. I want to see no man or woman incarcerated. I would not even want to see them removed, if they would champion the hobby, and any freedoms that can be guarded, instead of harm it. For instance, I *actually like* Bruce. I just vehemently do not agree with some of his actions WRT TRA management. That doesn't make him a bad person. I am not particularly all that fond of Jerry, mostly due to some of the unrestrained abusive language he publicly posts. That doesn't make him a bad person either, _also_ that does not make his points of view wrong. I have great respect so far for what I have seen of Mark Bundick, when he posts. I understand at least most of the pressures he faces in his "voluntary" position, and he does at least listen, as I have witnessed many occurrances of such.

I myself have faults; strengths and weaknesses. I am not perfect. I would hope people give me the chance to correct a wrong before feeding me to harsh circumstances. I have been in such falsely accused before, and it is no picnic.

I try to see the issues and the meaning behind the words. I try hard not to sue a man for his words, so to speak, even when they offend me. I am not always perfect at this, but I do try. I have met very few men or women who were/are good enough with any language to be great communicators. In that vein, I try to give all people some "freedom of speech" by trying to listen and comprehend the message *at least* as much as I talk; quite often it is prudent to listen much longer.

In this regard, as I see the "principles" at hand, in the realm of rocketry regulation, I stand firmly with many of the same beliefs and freedoms I understand Jerry to be fighting for.

That is "why TRA is focal" and "why it is not a witchhunt"... at least for me. And I do speak only for myself at this time.

~ Duane Phillips.

Send it in email. These involve issues of potential litigation or criminal allegations and I do not want to get NAR busted.

Jerry

Jerry, Why don't you get your motors CSFM certified? If they were CSFM certified you could sell motors in hobby shops all over California. CSFM requires the DOT paperwork too as I recall. That should cover that.

Assuming your question is innocent in its' integrity, I don't really know how to help you understand my point of view other than what I have posted. Personally, as it feels the question is more of a re-direct, it does not serve to alleviate the problem to redirect. It doesn't really matter which org you focus on at this time... by and large they have many of the same issues right now. But NAR has far less to lose if high power continues to "go south". And TRA has a more pronounced turbulent history. Maybe you don't see the current trend and motor situation as a problem? There are many things both orgs can do to alleviate the situation. It does not matter if both orgs have the same stand on an issue if the stand is wrong. I think it took having this court case for many to see that more should have been done sooner to protect the rights we now should have but due to common stance have lost. But that is hindsight... hindsight most of us are guilty of, not just the leadership of the two orgs. I guess we expect by appointing leaders for us, that they will have the foresight to protect the freedoms for us, instead of guard selfish territory.

Currently both orgs require, for purposes of motor certification:

-LEMPs

-DOT paperwork

-proof of valid business license

-user certification levels equal to motor class categorizations

-limited business model (i.e. certificatee must be the physical manufacturer) although this point is not uniformly enforced

--- and etcetera...

None of these things have anything to do with function and safety of the motors in question, *except* some type of analysis of the material, so the certificating org has a reasonable degree of assurance the motor will not

*explode* on the stand. But even that could be remedied by having the appropriate equipment on hand to pretest samples, just as is currently practiced via methods of over-regulation. All of the above are instituted _by_choice_ in both orgs. Does this serve the needs of the membership? I do not think so...; I know it to be detrimental. What sounded good and harmless initially has brought a major tourniquet to the neck of high power.

Couple this with the fact that the existing exemptions should have been in practice within the orgs long ago, and we have the mess we are in today. I pray it can be resolved and corrected...

~ Duane Phillips.

IIRC, CSFM is very expensive, and does nothing for the other states.

David Erbas-White

What a load of hogwash.

This should be a non-exclusive guest editorial in Sport Rocketry and Extreme Rocketry and High Power Rocketry magazine.

Jerry

this should be in the FAQ

- iz

The bigger stuff is essentially limited to certified high power users or professionals. The smaller stuff is available to anyone, even kids. Much more risks there.

But you have an LEUP??????????

Because Jerry lives to bitch?

I keep hearing about this illegal shipping Jerry has done? From both the TRA and NAR? Where there's smoke there's fire...

Oh yeah... right....

It's the Vapours!

Jerry can't get his motors certified there in the US by ANY of the rocketry organizations? Tells me something is fishy.

He won't get an LEMP on principal but does he have an LEUP? If he doesn't have an LEUP isn't he really asking for trouble?

Something tells me to stay far away from this man.

I know from experience.

No, The smoke came from the propellant fire at jerry's ontario shop.

Or an intentional smokescreen from a theatrical "fog machine"...

-dave w