ATF vs NAR/TRA

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I pay way too much for this alleged government we live under. They steal a large chunk of every paycheck I get. Then more in April. And more every time I purchase anything. I guess it could be worse. I could be getting as much government as I'm paying for.

I thought what we lived under was technically a republic, not a democracy. The difference being, in a democracy, they vote the way we want them to; in a republic, they vote the way they feel is best (for us).
Mind you, I don't think our representatives do either, but there is a distinction...

Scott Schuckert wrote:
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It is indeed a federal republic; I am careful to not mention democracy when making political comments.
The republic (usually) has elected representatives. A true democracy is one in which the people (citizens) participate in the governing body itself. Its not really who votes for what. Our reps *should* promote the wishes of their constituency, balanced against the needs of the republic, and checked against the Constitution. That's rarely the formula lately, however. We no longer elect statesmen capable of understanding the role or subtleties of the government laid out for them in the Constitution. We elect politicians who have abrogated their responsibilities to us, to actual lawmaking, and to the Constitution.
IMHO, of course.

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So did the Aug 11 and Nov 10 rules take effect as "official" NPRM's? Did they go through a comment period? I never saw any request for comments from the NAR/TRA leadership...
If no comment period, didn't ATFE illegally violate their own rules AGAIN?
-- David

David wrote:
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The 62.5g NPRM went through an extended comment period and will take effect October 10. The ATF actually responded to many of the comments, although their response can be summed up as "we disagree". From a rule making standpoint they followed the process. After October 10 if you have motors with more than 62.5g of regulated propellant or capable of being assembled into more than 62.5g, you need a permit.
The PAD "clarification" is in the comment phase now. The NAR/TRA has not issued official comments yet. You are free to comment on your own. Being able to cite specific devices that ARE recognized as PADs will help refute the ATF's ridiculous manipulation of the term "device" (i.e. anything except a rocket motor). I now know where Bill Clinton's speech writers are hanging out ;-)
Of course, if the NAR/TRA wins in court that APCP is not an explosive, the 62.5g and PAD definition is moot.

Alex Mericas wrote:
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First we must determine what the meaning of is, is...(:-)

Alex Mericas wrote:
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> propellant or capable of being assembled into more than 62.5g, you need > a permit.
This isn't my read of the law. My read is that currently ANY motors with APCP in them need a permit, and after October 10th, they will grant an exemption for motors with less than 62.5 grams of APCP.

I've contemplated that interpretation myself. In that regard, ATF is actually doing us a favor with the 62.5g rule because it will no longer be subject to interpretation. They have been giving us an unwritten exemption to APCP ModRoc motors for a long time.
The igniter issue is a whole different thing, though.

Thomas Koszuta wrote:
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That is exactly what ATF has said, that they have been giving us our cake and allowing us to eat it. Now, I guess we are obese and need a diet.
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*Shudder*

This topis is both boring and superfluous. In the end, the government, i.e. the ATF/BATF WILL win. Flying a rocket no matter how large or small isn't protected under the Bill of RIghts (first 10 Ammendments) or the rest of 'those words writen by white guys'.
In the end, the BATF will just rewrite the laws in a manner that regulates G motors, K motors, M motors, P motors, C motors, B motors, ANY motors. Much in the SAME way the government regulates cigarettes, booze, birth control pills, abortions, taxes, the media, ect..
You guys ACTUALLY think you have a chance at fighting your accepted and tolerated government ... see that is the REAL joke behind this whole arguement.
Lets see, I want to make my own booze. Its in my backyard, on my property and I am not doing any harm to anyone... yes, and you still goto prision if they (government) catch you ... don't you people see the monster that you have ALL created? I didn't think so :(
Lunar
shockwaveriderz wrote:
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On 11 Oct 2006 03:05:55 -0700, " snipped-for-privacy@juno.com"
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There is still the over arching principle of liberty and pursuit of happiness.
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I suppose all motors could come with expensive tax stamps, but then they would not allow ameteure/EX made motors, due to the loss of retinue.
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It is a long shot, but as long as the NAR/TRA is paying for it with donated funds and not general revenue dues and such, I'm OK with that.
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You can make your own booze as long as you get all the required permits and licenses, and pay for the tax stamps. You can also make generous amounts of beer and wine, tax and permit free.
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OK, it is 10/11/06. How many non compliant sport rocketeers had their doors busted in at 3 AM or so by the BATFE?

snipped-for-privacy@juno.com wrote:
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We needn't give BATFE too much credit here. They'll get the big stuff and set precedent.
Our state lawmakers, unconcerned with considering or writing legislation, will let the NFPA regulate hybrids and "propellants" in sport rockets (with a little BATFE encouragement, of course).
The CPSC will help take care of "exempt" motors.
Cynical? Yea. I seem to be one of those individuals whose interests and hobbies are just not acceptable. I used to be enthralled with chemistry. Tried finding any quality glassware (locally) lately? Its drug making paraphernalia. Haven't seen a useful chemistry set at a hobby store in decades. Rockets. Firearms. 4 wheel drive. I wish I could find a hobby that someone promotes, vice regulates.
Aw well, there's still Linux and the GNU compilers. I guess I should be thankful that Microsoft, et al, are actively promoting them.

Drag racing is experiencing a resurgenc...and you get to play with nitrous too. ;-)
Mark Simpson
Gary wrote:
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On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 19:23:57 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@wowway.com wrote:
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Have those Fast and Furious movies spawned a resurgence in street racing?

Alan Jones wrote:
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Only thing those poorest excuses of entertainment spawned is a bunch of neo-tijuana taxi cabs.
Ted 'must be careful of spell check' Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75

the notorious t-e-d wrote:
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HAH! ;-)