Contest motor availabilty -- compared to 1987

Oh man, jerry's really screwed!

Reply to
Dave Grayvis
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Right. My point (one of them at least) is that applying this passage (or equivalent DOT requirements dealing with "class 1 explosives)) to model rocket engines is unrealistic and unnecessary, and overstates the actual hazard. They're not going to "ignite or explode [and] injure the mails (etc., etc.)" - the only way they would "ignite" in shipment is if the whole load of mail were on fire anyway.

-dave w

shockwaveriderz wrote:

Reply to
David Weinshenker

formatting link
allegedly can.

how?

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Dave W. wrote:

Reply to
RayDunakin

No, they do not. Didn't you read their disclaimer? The fact that someone who uses their auction services might do something outside the auction that is illegal is in no way the same as "sanctioning illegal behavior".

Reply to
RayDunakin
18 USC 2 Sec. 2. - Principals

(a)

Whoever commits an offense against the United States or aids, abets, counsels, commands, induces or procures its commission, is punishable as a principal.

(b)

Whoever willfully causes an act to be done which if directly performed by him or another would be an offense against the United States, is punishable as a principal

I would consider ROL to be "facilitating" as aiding and abetting.....That fact that they have a dislaimer to me, just proves my point, they know they are provding a venue for potential illegal behavior and activity to occur, thuse facilitation or aiding and abeting a crime to take place......

Ray, have you ever wondering WHY Ebay has a policy against individuals buying and selling model rockets not to mention HPR motors on their auction service? Could it be because their legal eagles told them that even a "disclaimer" would not be a shield to prosecution? Or that their legal eagles informed them of the applicable USPS regulations and that Ebay could not assure that the buyers and sellers were in compliance?

The only "people" who can legally ship model rocket motors thru the USPS are those that have a copy of the aplicable DOT exemptions in their place of business....ie recognized dealers of estes/aerotech or whatever the products may be. The typical individual does not have party status to these exemptions. To pretend that they may, is just ludicous

In addition to violating federal Law, these people are also violating State laws, ie the NFPA codes.... The only people who are allowed to sell HPR to people are dealers who are members of either the NAR/TRA, and are certfied at least Level 1. Do you seriously believe that the buyers and sellers care or check to make sure the people selling or purchasing these HPR motors have the applicable certfiication level? or that the people maiing the purchases are over 18? Or that the person is a member of the NAR or TRA?

What if this person is a terrorist? Ok go ahead and laugh. One of "OUR" arguments is that "our" rocket motors would and could never be used by terrorists... Well if we have anonymous people buing and selling APCP M motors via the internet, ignoring all applicable federal and State laws, how do we really know who is doing the buying and selling? Or the quantities that the people are buying.

shockie B)

And for those of you taking advantage of this venue, how do you know you are not buing from or selling to a US Postal Inspector?

Reply to
shockwaveriderz

sanction

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

  1. I agree with your legal anlaysis.
  2. I find your posting the cite of their criminal behaviour offensive because you seem focused on them (or me in some cases) being criminally prosecuted.

Even if it does happen it will only HURT rocketry because it will show up as a statistic on a Justice department survey as an example of rocketry encouraging criminal behavior.

So the narcs are self-defeating.

Which is a CHANGE and a truly bogus rule.

Which is a CHANGE and a truly bogus rule.

Which is a CHANGE and a truly bogus rule.

Please point to ONE terrorist.

Okay.

If any.

... complying with ...

Record of sale. I would ask the FBI to confirm my own performance anytime.

You are personally, truly DANGEROUS to rocketry and those engaged in the hobby.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

JI: You find my posting offensive? I find illegal activity by people in my hobby very offensive and if takes putting a few of you in prison to get and keep it clean, then let the chips fall where they may.... you know JI, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime....its called self-regulation remember? If you and others refuse to self-regulate your conduct and behavior in this hobby , if you insist on willfully breaking state and federal laws, it doesn't make me me a "narc" as you call it; it just calls you on your willingness to accept the consequences of your actions...... And I find it interesting that you would try and associate my trying to point out this hobby has a few really bad apples , with a person who informs on drug dealers...... It obvious that you are a drug abuser and perhaps thats what is impairing your judgement as far as shipping hazmat materials as non-hazmat..... when well know individuals within any endeavor openly violate the law or give the apperance of such, it makes it that much easier for those of questionable morals to do the same and then justify it, as well. JI or BK or so and so did it/does it, and nothing happened to them ,so its alright for them to do it, its ok for me...its called rationalization.....well it isn't alright

shockie B)

abetting.....That

Reply to
shockwaveriderz

You're using the same kind of twisted logic as the ATF in proclaiming the possibility of "potential" illegal behavior to be equivalent to actual illegal behavior.

Yes, auctions could be used by those who do not obey the law when shipping. So what? Maybe we should shut down the whole internet, since allowing people to use it has been proven to facilitate the illegal shipping of motors -- as well as facilitating many other illegal acts.

Better shut down the newspapers too, lest they facilitate further criminal acts by advertisers who defraud customers or fail to comply with every regulation.

Reply to
RayDunakin

So regulate yourself and mind your own business.

Reply to
RayDunakin

That statement PROVES you are a legal moron.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Offensive is not the right word.

Correct. Scary. Hurtful to the hobby if followed through on.

That's why I have not turned in Brucie, Chuckipoo and Frank.

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Sit down and shut up, Jerry.

Who's the legal moron?

Reply to
wOrd of ReaSoN 5

I replied:

Reply to
RayDunakin

Yes. This is precisely the problem. We need to change the situation that you describe in this paragraph. (Or don't you agree that it's a problem?)

The actual (i.e., low) hazard level of a model rocket motor in shipment does not depend on the identity of the shipper. Therefore it is wrong (IMHO) for the legal requirements to be what (as you describe them) they presently are.

-dave w

Reply to
David Weinshenker

What if the law happens to be in the wrong? Are you incapable of comprehending such a concept? Or do you blindly equate "legal compliance" with ethical virtue? You're "offended" when anyone doesn't do what the government tells them to?

-dave w

Reply to
David Weinshenker

Dave,

I don't really know you so, I have to ask -

What qualifications do you have that make you more an authority than DOT? I would prefer not to have rocket motors help the mail burn while I'm around.

Reply to
Phil Stein

David, Shipping 200 pounds of motors is not a common "ROL" occurrence.

steve

Reply to
default

Ray, Shockie wasn't relating the ROL auctions to "possible" criminal actions. He was using the aiding and abetting logic. I happen to agree. There is no "potential crime" in my book. Only committed crimes. So, ROL is safe with their little warning disclaimer until someone actually gets caught. THEN they are liable, just like a guy who sells guns and maps of bank vaults with a written disclaimer.

steve

Reply to
default

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