ok and therin lies a major problem. There is no way to know just by
lookinjg at it, if a BP motor has been temperture cycled once or hundreds of
times.... Until the manufacturers devise a way to determine this , I suppose
there will be motor decertifications... but whats the worse that can happen?
a cato... most cato's only damage the model, nothing else....
jerry, I decided to help you out with your problem. I'll call Bob
Lynch tomorrow and see if He can influence TMT motor testing to broaden
their scope and to begin the testing of "model airplane parts" on
regular basis. Also, I'll see if He has any recommendations or "tips"
on solving your problems with the ATF. Just make sure all your current
paperwork is ready to go, so we can get the ball rolling.
I disagree. First off, even if previously manufactured and certified
motors were allowed to be used indefinitely, the manufacturers would
still be required to submit new motors of that same type periodically
for testing to assure that safety and performance hadn't changed. If
the manufacturer stops submitting motors, the new motors would be
uncertified. A dishonest manufacturer could continue making new motors,
never get them tested, and just slap on an old date to pass them off as
So let's be clear. You are suggesting I submit ATF LEMP paperwork (the
only discrepency at issue) that the "manufacturer" (a subcontractor from
my perspective) does not legally need (according to the ATF) and refuses
to get, unnecessarily?
And how does that jive with YOUR position on ATF and the lawsuit?
What "three subcontractors" would those be?
And..., if you have "subcontractors" that would make you the
"contractor", or in other words, "the manufacturer".
Do these "subcontractors" each have their own EX numbers? If not, who's
EX numbers are they using?
from NFPA 1125:
8.4 Decertification. The rocket motor or motor-reloading kit shall be
decertified by the certifying entity if it is determined that the rocket
motor or motor-reloading kit no longer complies with the original
certification criteria or current certification criteria, with respect to
This is ALL that is said about decertification in any of the NFPA codes...
If you take this "literally" , for a motor to be decerted, the certfiying
entity, in this case, the NAR/TRA, has to make a determination (by
restesting?) that the motor or motor reloading kit no longer complies with
the original certifctaion criteria or current certifcation with respect to
Now heres the NAR decertification criteria:
Removal of Certification
The process of decertification of a motor is based on the date of a
significant event. Significant events include (but are not limited to): * The day the manufacturer ceases operations.
* The day the manufacturer informs S&T (or it becomes generally known)
the manufacture of a motor has ceased.
* The day the manufacturer fails to submit the motor when requested for
Once the significant event has occurred, decertification begins. During the
decertification period, motors manufactured after the date of the
event are not certified. Motors manufactured before the date of the
significant event remain certified according to the following timetable:
* Contest certification for that motor is dropped at the end of that
year. A contest year runs from July 1 through June 30 and includes the
at the end of that contest year, which may be after June 30. * General certification as a model or high power rocket motor is dropped
three years from the date of the significant event.
The only exceptions to the above decertification schedule is as follows:
* In the case of government regulatory action, decertification may
* In the case of consumer complaints, safety problems, blind testing
failures, or triennial testing failures, NAR certification may be
or withdrawn if the manufacturer fails to solve the problem within
six months from the date of notification.
NFPA 1125 and NAR S&T don't seem to exactly mesh with one another.
Doe anybody know what the TRA criteria are for motor decertifcation? Is it
the same as the nar DECERT POLICY?
Hence why I regularly BEG to simply submit recert samples.
"complies with the original certification criteria"
were so lax when they were certified, essentially no paperwork at all
Even I can comply with that and this language is the LAW (and formal TRA
I am proveably being unreasonably withheld from the market.
Even if you believe the rmr claims (which TRA never made) that
relabeling happened and it was intentional and malicious, that is not a
decert criteria. ONLY safety is.
Nobody has EVER made such a claim re any USR product.
In fact it is often stated the motors are more reliable than others.
I for one have not had NAR motors decertified. On one case, my
subcontractor, Aerotech by GCR, simply refused to submit recert samples
and I failed to retain sufficient quantities from prior orders to
resubmit myself. AT has always been supply constrained since 1982.
From NFPA 1125:
7.9 Motor Shelf Life.
7.9.1 When the performance of a solid propellant rocket motor or
motor-reloading kit deviates from the sample test criteria
and limits detailed in 7.8.6 within 5 years from the date of manufacture, it
shall be withdrawn from commercial sale and
redesigned to provide reliable operation when ignited within 5 years from
the date of manufacture.
7.9.2 If the expected shelf life of a rocket motor or motorreloading kit is
less than 10 years, the manufacturer shall imprint
a "use before" date on the package or motor casing.
Since I have never seen a motor or reload kit with a Use before date, motor
and reloads kits sem to have a shelf life > 10 years....
7.9.1 if taken literally seems to imlpy that if the motor/reload kit
deviates from the (original test critera?) within 5 years from the date
of its manufacture, then its cert can be withdrawm, ie, it becomes
I don't beleive any of this testing is currently being done by NAR S&T...
but as I pointed out in a nother post to this thread, NAR S&T and NFPA 1125
seems to contridict one another as to how decerts are supposed to take
place, ie testing must be done to show that the old motor(s) are no longer
safe for use...
The problem is, the temperature-cycling cracking of a rammed BP motor can
be caused through temperature excursions in either direction. I have motors
purchased ten years ago which have never left the hobby den and are kept
between 65 degrees (SWMBO starts to shiver) and 80 degrees (I start to
sweat). More problematic is what temperatures they might have been
exposed to during the truck ride from the distributor to the store. I tend
make motor purchases in the spring and autumn, but you never really know.
However, if I put them in my range box and took them out to the field on an
sweltering South Georgia summer day they might heat up to over 120 degrees.
Conversely, there were at least two days this winter when they would have
gone down to below freezing.
So, you'd need TWO different strips. Or some kind of really inexpensive
min-max recording thermometer :-) At the really, really large rocket
I work at our motors are kept under controlled temperatures which are
monitored and recorded from the moment they are cast until they are either
launched or destroyed.
Personally I deal with the problem by careful storage, and always try to
expend all the motors I take out on each trip to the range.