MR/LMR Launch Cancelled by FAA

oops forgot to insert the text that was sent to both the Airport Manager and ATc:

Notice of Large Model Rocket Launch - FAR 101.22

Pursuant to the requirements set down in Federal Aviation Regulation 101.22, this is a notice of a launch event for Large Model Rockets. For your information, a Large Model Rocket is defined as a model that uses not more than 125 grams of propellant, made of paper, wood, or breakable plastic, containing no substantial metal parts, and weighing not more than 1,500 grams including propellant. A model rocket, exempt from regulation as per FAR 101, Subpart C, is identical in definition except that its maximum weight is 453 grams and its maximum propellant weight is 113 grams. The following information is specifically required by this regulation:

1. Name, address, and telephone number of Launch Coordinator:

Terry Dean

0000 xxxxxxxxxxxxx Lexington,KY xxxx xxx-xxx-xxxx

2.Location of Launch Site:

Masterson Station Park Lexington,Ky 40511

3.Date and Time of Launch Operation:

Launch Operations will be Saturday April 9 and Sunday April 10, from

1Pm EST to 5Pm EST

4.Estimated Number of Rockets to be Operated:

Approximately Ten (10)

5.Estimated Size and Weight:

The estimated sizes and weights of these LMR will range from

2-4" inches in diameter and 3-6 Feet in Length, with a maximum weight of 3.3lb(1500g)

6.Estimated Maximum Altitude:

The Maximum Estimated Altitude will be 4000 ft determined per Altitude Tables

As per the requirements of FAR 101.23, this launch event will be cancelled if the horizontal visibility is less than five miles or if the sky is more than five-tenths obscured at the maximum estimated altitude. In addition, if surface winds exceed a steady 20 miles per hour, this launch event will also be cancelled for safety reasons.

This notice, or equivalent information via telephone,fax or email, is being provided to the FAA and to all known airports within a 5 nautical mile radius of the above-named launch location.

Attached is a PDF file of the applicable FAA regulations

IF you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxx-xxxx or email me at snipped-for-privacy@nowhere.com Visit our website at

What park?

What location?

When did this happen?

We (as I think you know) had a similar problem with an old airport manager (no longer in that position) who claimed that any rockets would scare pilots and might make them crash. FAA officials attempted to reason with him, but he was determined to call each and every county official to get our permission to use the park revoked. He failed. With the input from the FAA, and his irrational arguments, the higher ups at the parks department could clearly see he was irrational and they arranged meetings with him to identify and answer his concerns. While these meetings were going on, we agreed to launch traditional Model Rockets (under 1 pound) only and keep the altitude under 700 AGL. We flew safely for many months this way. After the meetings, he had no remaining legs to stand on to keep us limited, and then we were able to resume flying under the normal FAA regulation limits.

I guess that second post of yours answered my earlier questions....

;-)

heres whta the ATC emailed me:

Mr. Dean,

The model rocket launch you describe conflicts with the approach flight path to Lexington Blue Grass Airport and is at an altitude which creates a collision hazard with aircraft. Â As I discussed with you by telephone today, the described model rocket launch is not permitted. Â

Duff Ortman

Air Traffic Manager

Federal Aviation Administration

Lexington Air Traffic Control Tower (LEX)

Find out what the "upside down wedding cake' for the area looks like.

If you can operate you model rockets below their airspace, then carefully rephrase and resubmit your notification.

They are indeed correct if you intend to launch model rockets (MR or LMR) into the approach path of planes/jets/rotorcraft/gliders/blimps/etc.

You can certainly control the launching by simply not pushing the button when you see aircraft, but the models cannot be controlled during descent. A model of any size that is gently floating down from apogee on a large (or small) parachute or streamer could get ingested by a jet.

This leads me to ask: I thought Model Rockets were totally and completely exempt from FAA Regulations and hence oversight?

I might add that people ahve been launching model rockets at this park for

25+ years and we have permission from the Park Manager to do so....

And I also want to add I have been at the field and seen 727/737 airliners at altitudes of 2-4K , they are big and slow moving......

oh well

Since the dawn of time you could only fly model rockets as long as you did not present a hazard to aricraft or persons. Just like it said in:

(d) Operated in a manner that does not create a hazard to persons, property, or other aircraft.

fred: what do I need to know and where do I find it , to determine what is below their airspace?

I do have a sectional map and a 7.5 series topo map...

shockie B)

Just to clarify the differences in the two cases:

We are not on the approach or departure path to or from the airport. It's a general aviation facility, VERY busy and also has lots of rotorcraft. They loved to buzz over the park and student pilots circled the park while learning to fly. This made park officials VERY nervous. (Several years after our problems, another nearby regional park with an airport nearby had a plane go down into a beach/picnic area near a lake and kill a child - so the concern was proved valid).

The park we use has high tension lines between us and the airport (over

2000 feet away from our launch pads and pretty damned tall), so planes and helicopters should not be flying really low in this area. We proved we could stop launching when any aircraft were spotted in the area. they can fly realively low (1000 ft) and slow and blend in with the haze and disappear. We are extremely cautious to watch and listen for aircraft. the FAA even had a document that explained how the NAR clubs do this when theycontduct launches and that's why the LMR regulations were safe (no waiver...).

So, to sum it up, we do not have a continuous line of aircraft clying over us to land. We get several aircraft overhead during our 3 hour launch sessions and we simply "HOLD" until they are well out of the area (and cannot turn back before the model lands).

I'm not a pilot, and I don't read the maps. I relied on the FAA person, who read the maps and told me what traffic was at what altitude over what areas.

There must be pilots on r.m.r. or TRF who can help you.

Anybody? Anybody? Beuller?

completely

You're within 5 miles of an airport. You're also right under the approach and thus could be considered a collision hazard.

Obviously, the folks who were doing so did not get the FAA involved.

Sounds like a less-than-ideal place to try to fly rockets.

d

You woke the sleeping giant. Now deal with it.

Now everybody but you can fly model rockets there (they have not received notice).

Now everybody but you who gives notice can fly LMR. Unless specifically refused.

Jerry

well excuse me Jerry: I thought I was doing the right thing by following the FAA regulations for Notice... I just didn't pay close enough attention to the FAR and Notice regs which give the FAA an "out" to deny MR/LMR near airports.....

the funny thing is the way I was treated, I was told, "we don't even know who you are"... and when I told them that we scan the sky 360 degrees before any rocket flight and do not fly any rockets if any aircarft are in the area, he replied" SO i'm supposed to entrust the safety of the planes on your word alone"? whoa... I think this guy saw the word ROCKETS and just panicked.......

remember this earlier discussion here on RMR about notices being only notification and the FAA had no authority to deny permission ? well obviously they can and do....

shockie B)

The proper answer is, "yes", VFR.

Maybe he could tell just how offensive you are by that one conversation?

You're "special".

Jerry is an expert on FAA issues. His TRA membership reflects that.

Jerry is also an expert at shipping hazmat and other DOT issues. His label of Big Fine reflects that.

Is there anything else you want Jerry to help you with? How about busniess?

FAA agrees. I even completed a chart mod filing at their request, received an ANNUAL FAA waiver at their request, and worked with them to stop jurisdictional claims by another agency on FAA turf.

Jerry

Big f'in deal. My dog could have done that. As I said, your position in TRA reflects your expertise in FAA matters.

And quit snipping stuff I write to change the meaning. If you don't I'll have certain people pull up their zipper and cause you to suffocate.

Just because the airport manager told you no, doesn't mean he is legally allowed to do so. Nowhere in the extensive FAR you quoted does it say that the airport manager can deny your notification.

Maybe try applying for a waiver. If you get the waiver, then you have someone within the organization that thinks you can do it safely. Then maybe that person can help with the airport manager.

It might not seem likely to work but it's easy to do and who knows - it might work.