Ok, so U.S. Rockets [NEVER] existed? I am confused!

Gee, thanks... And it had been so quiet and civil here lately, too...
David Erbas-White

I won't say anything... at least not until the smoke and burning bits cease. :)

I sure hope it stays that way.. However, I'm sure, that will be determined by the response of the principle..(:-)
Fred
David Erbas-White wrote:

WOW! I didn't know Jerry was in Hollywood! Well if the following website is accurate, he and his "non-existent" U.S. Rockets company did the rocket motors in the movie, "The Running Man"!
Running Man/ U.S. Rockets page --> Is this the Jerry Irvine who developed High Power Rocketry down in Southern CA, or a different Jerry Irvine?
Its so confusing to keep up with the twists/company names/victims/law suits/fines ...

will the real slim shady please stand up ?
shockie B)

Snip for brevity's sake.
Boy,
Now I know why the discussions here about this topic generate smoke, heat and high emotions. The SNOAR article only goes up to 1991. It's ashame things turned out like they did.
Kurt Savegnago

well the shady part seems to be correct.

Kurt,
It is ashamed. From what I can figure out, Jerry Irvine was the most promissing talent in low and high power rocketry ... liken to a young Anikin Skywalker. The "rocket force" was strong in him. I have been reading old rockety mags from the late 1970s and early 1980s where he pioneered many high power kits, and co-developed reloads with Gary R. and Frank K [ Snip for brevity's sake.

Dude, what's wrong with you? Did you forget your medicine this morning? What in the world ever posessed you to paint the HPR pioneers as drug addicts in a public forum?
Even though I don't personally agree with most of the opinions that he posts, I feel bad for Jerry Irvine. He did nothing to deserve a public slander like this.
I certainly hope you are not a member of any rocketry association I belong to. You have gone way, way, way too far.
snipped-for-privacy@juno.com wrote:

(Snip for brevity's sake)
That's too bad. Can't say I've even seen an arrogant modeler yet. Times have changed. That attitude may have evolved because high-power was considered outlaw at the time? I wasn't there so I couldn't say. NAR was at odds, Tripoli formed and it seemed that so many people worked on HPR, made it safe and acceptable. Sort of becoming "respectable". :)
I asked Jerry some modeling questions early on when I started a year ago and he gave me some good solid advice about dual-deployment conversion of one of his models. I agree he is very intelligent and was very nice to me in his emails. Have two of his models on my shelf I want to get to building this winter. I am in Illinois so we have a "building season" that comes after fall. :)
Coming from the medical field I hope the situation would be a substance abuse problem as that has a much greater success at being treated if one desires help Street drugs could aggravate some personality tendencies. For instance, if one is a bit of a cautious person and began using cocaine, they could develop a severe paranoia. Heck some paranoia may happen even if they were "normal" before abusing. If they are schizophrenic, abuse cocaine, they become a "flaming" schizophrenic and really hallucinate with all that dopamine floating around.
I remember a person who mildly was using heroin (it's h-e-r-o-i-n not herion or heroine :) ) Turns out they were using the heroin to alleviate the schizophrenia symptoms! Now this person was mildly schizophrenic and was employed at a government agency no less. Once this person was placed on the appropriate medication for the mental illness, the desire to use heroin went away and life became really good for them. Wished substance abuse was this simple.
A true Sociopath is extremely hard to treat any way you look at it and I hope that is not the case here.
The Anikin Skywalker analogy seemed fitting for your hypothesis.
Kurt Savegnago

Hello Dynapython,
Well because people are people. Some people who fly REAL rockets are alcoholics, e.g. Neil Armstrong (Apollo 11) is an alcoholic. Alcohol is a substance that one can become addicted to in the SAME was as H-E-R-O-I-N. You see, people are people. We all have the capacity to love, to hate, to murder, to care, to steal, to lie, to feel, to want, ect.. Its just that most of us have self control and that it what keeps us civil and progressing as a society/culture.
Some (not MOST, I retract that predicate noun), not all, some being one or more, of the "founding fathers" of both low and high power rocketry, did in fact, use drugs. Now some used the drug of alcohol, while others used controlled substances ... am I going to name them, nope, because that is there personal business. One of them did share their experiences and opinions with narcotics with a fellow flyer back in the late 1970s. Is that flyer still using the narcotic? I don't know. It was just posed as speculation as to why Jerry Irvine does the things that he has done over and over over the last 27+ years.
So please, don't place words where they never were. Again, SOME (more than 1) of the 1970s/80s /low/high power flyers, by his own mouth admitted, in confidence, that he felt that H-E-R-O-I-N was "more pleasurable than sex". Now how you arrived at, " What in the world ever posessed you to paint the HPR pioneers as drug addicts in a public forum? " was NOT the point I was trying to make, although SOME of them were users. People make unwise choices in ALL professions and hobbies on life. There are NAR people who show up drunk at the flying field. At a NARAM event years back, a drunk flyer, crashed several radio controlled rocket gliders in a row ... it was sad to see, but it does happen. There are people who were major players in model rocketry who are now dead because of a car crash due to drugs and alcohol, sad but true. I wish it were a perfect world, but is isn't.
As for Jerry Irvine, its not that I am trying to call him names as that has been and will always be done given the current issues with him. I am just trying to understand, WHY a person makes choices that lead to such an unrecoverable fall. I am not chastising the man, instead I want to see him in a positive light. Like I said, either he has a REAL physical neurological issue, or it MIGHT be, a drug addiction as I have seen people throw away six figure a year incomes, homes, and family for a little white rock, or power heated in a spoon then injected. And personally, I don't think its a physical reason as to Jerry's behavoir, so that only leaves ...
No angst against Jerry meant at all in these postings. Actually, I hope that Jerry might be inspired by these posting to get things worked out and positively re-enter rocketry. And if it should be substance abuse, that is far more forgivable than blatant greed. Drugs have a way of short circuiting the brain's built in common sense.
As for the last sentence in your posting, "I certainly hope you are not a member of any rocketry association I belong to. You have gone way, way, way too far.", I just hope you realise that there are people who fly rockets (NAR/TRA members) who beat there wives and children. There are members who use weed, meth, coke, H-E-R-O-I-N, booze, ect.. There is likely to be a member a two in both organizations that molest young children and perhaps use the pretence of, "lets go fly a rocket together Timmy", as a way to get into the child's pants ... its NOT a perfect world. Everyone is NO WHERE NEAR a Jesus Christ. Personally, you should be proud that I am a member of either organization as I could be the guy parking next to you at the next meet, loaning you some thermalite, or helping you prep your large chute or carry supplies out to the pads. If I am willing to be intellectually and emotionally honest with you here, CHANCES are, I will be so in person :) Be careful what you wish for, as you may get it.

Hello again Dynapython,
Tell ya what, lets ask the man himself ... Jerry Irvine. Jerry I have made some claims and asked some questions in a public forum. I have not tried to drag you through the mud. I am trying to understand why you do the things you have done.
So I will ask you, Jerry Irvine, in this public forum of rec.models.rockets:
Why do you do the things that get you into such trouble over and over again?
I am not "out to get you" or "make you look bad" as that has been the case since the early 1980s. It would have been real easy to type, "Jerry is a crook", "Jerry is a thief", but instead, I refered to you as "bright and intelligent", hell that is better than some of the people who post here! But I also view you as a "sociopathic miscreant". Now that is where I have the issue with you. It would be nice in a couple years or so to say to another person in rocketry, "I am sure proud of Irvine. He got his life turned around, and now he and we are better off because of it!". Now wouldn't that be better that the existing feelings?
Jerry Irvine, what say you?

Geez...it almost sounds like your admitting that you might be a member that might, and I quote you;
"that there are people who fly rockets (NAR/TRA members) who beat there wives and children. There are members who use weed, meth, coke, H-E-R-O-I-N, booze, ect.. There is likely to be a member a two in both organizations that molest young children and perhaps use the pretence of, "lets go fly a rocket together Timmy", as a way to get into the child's pants"
Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75

Hi,
At the risk of being flamed I think lunarlos wrote "many" and not "all" pioneers. The SNOAR article from 1991 was pretty involved and I feel sad for all the parties. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few coke heads and speedballers involved in rocketry then and now. I think the vast majority, then and now, were just regular people wanting to have fun. Lunarlos may have been with a crowd of users who just so happened to like HPR. I mean what the heck, it "is" California! :) (Sounds like that is where he lives. He can correct me if he choses to do so.) He said himself his drug comments were speculation and I took it as a hypothesis. It is an explanation of some observations that is NOT necessarily the TRUTH. Only the subject of question would know the truth. My opinion is Jerry wants rocketry to be accessible, easily for one to partake of and the way the current laws are written, too restrictive. People always hammer him with the shipping incident that resulted in a substantial fine. Cripes, I asked a postal worker if they take "special precautions" with rocket engines or have a "special place" for items of that nature in the post office. She replied, "No". We all know and maintain that our engines are safe and I think all of the hazardous material restriction placed on shipping is overkill. One thing though, you can't lie to the govermit or they get mad! Some of the other documentation out there concerning Jerry is a bit unusual and actually quite bizarre. Is it simply eccentricity? Is it substance abuse? Is it sociopathic? I don't know and neither does anyone else. (It is easier to treat substance abuse though if the person wants to be helped.) It is true that from what I have seen here, alot of folks don't care for Jerry. Some of whom he allegedly owes money to. Could be lunarlos "made all this up"? Possibly, but his hypothesis is one fit to the facts as he presented and should not be taken as an insult to the early HPR folks.
Kurt Savegnago

Hi Ted,
Could be and the same MIGHT apply to you? People are people ... thats why we have laws and establish limits on personal behavior, but alas this still doesn't any of my original questions :(
Since you have an opinion on my choice of words and phrases, perhaps, you might be able to also share commentary on Jerry Irvine, both his behavoir and possible motivations behind it?
Ted, is it pure greed that motivates Jerry? Is it substance abuse? Ted, what say you?

Why must there be some addiction or disorder to excuse his behavior? One need not be on drugs or mentally ill to be an egotistical, unscroupulous liar and fraud.
Q

How would I know??? Your the one that seams to know all in all about people in rocketry.
And judging from your posts, I'm starting to wonder....'What's Lunarlos's choice of poison?'
So I ask of Lunarlos, what are you on??
:)
Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75

Same here. Can I get some?

Hello Again Kurt,
Let me fill in some blanks:
As SOME of you have figured out, I was indeed involved in HPR back in the 1970s. I was also involved in flying off lakebeds in the Mojave area. I have personally met Jerry, and was very impressed with him back then, however I am not impressed today.
I knew and flew with people in the the Southern CA area. I remember driving to Korey Kline's house in San Gabriel and going through SMOG as thick as fog along the way!
While I no longer call California home, it was an AWESOME place to be working as an aerospace engineer during the 1970s ... the money and the technology ... oh baby!
As to the drugs, I am ONLY guessing. Trying to figure out Jerry Irvine is trying to figure out why you wife gets mad at you for no reason ... just crazy! I have asked Jerry to comment on my questions and assertions, so lets give him a day a two as he might be busy doing something else in real life.
As to the people back then, yes after an afternoon of flying, it wasn't uncommon for a bong to appear and be passed around, but these are adults, and they have to live with their decisions.
I also believe that Jerry wants model rocketry to exist, grow, and that he make a few bucks along the way. Nothing wrong with self-enterprise ... its what has made the United States of America so friggin powerful on the planet!
No insult to those early people at all. For the record, I had better state the following:
G. Harry Stine - perfect record Vern Estes - perfect record Lee Piester - perfect record Bill Roe - perfect record
Gary R. (aerotech) - perfect record Frank Kosdon - perfect record Korey Kline - perfect record Chuck Rogers - perfect record
Those are just the early pioneers off the top of my head, that to MY knowlege, have never wronged ANYONE! Hope that clears things up.