Ok, so U.S. Rockets [NEVER] existed? I am confused!

Dynapython wrote:


Hi,
At the risk of being flamed I think lunarlos wrote "many" and not "all" pioneers. The SNOAR article from 1991 was pretty involved and I feel sad for all the parties. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few coke heads and speedballers involved in rocketry then and now. I think the vast majority, then and now, were just regular people wanting to have fun. Lunarlos may have been with a crowd of users who just so happened to like HPR. I mean what the heck, it "is" California! :) (Sounds like that is where he lives. He can correct me if he choses to do so.) He said himself his drug comments were speculation and I took it as a hypothesis. It is an explanation of some observations that is NOT necessarily the TRUTH. Only the subject of question would know the truth. My opinion is Jerry wants rocketry to be accessible, easily for one to partake of and the way the current laws are written, too restrictive. People always hammer him with the shipping incident that resulted in a substantial fine. Cripes, I asked a postal worker if they take "special precautions" with rocket engines or have a "special place" for items of that nature in the post office. She replied, "No". We all know and maintain that our engines are safe and I think all of the hazardous material restriction placed on shipping is overkill. One thing though, you can't lie to the govermit or they get mad! Some of the other documentation out there concerning Jerry is a bit unusual and actually quite bizarre. Is it simply eccentricity? Is it substance abuse? Is it sociopathic? I don't know and neither does anyone else. (It is easier to treat substance abuse though if the person wants to be helped.) It is true that from what I have seen here, alot of folks don't care for Jerry. Some of whom he allegedly owes money to. Could be lunarlos "made all this up"? Possibly, but his hypothesis is one fit to the facts as he presented and should not be taken as an insult to the early HPR folks.
Kurt Savegnago

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Hello Again Kurt,
Let me fill in some blanks:
As SOME of you have figured out, I was indeed involved in HPR back in the 1970s. I was also involved in flying off lakebeds in the Mojave area. I have personally met Jerry, and was very impressed with him back then, however I am not impressed today.
I knew and flew with people in the the Southern CA area. I remember driving to Korey Kline's house in San Gabriel and going through SMOG as thick as fog along the way!
While I no longer call California home, it was an AWESOME place to be working as an aerospace engineer during the 1970s ... the money and the technology ... oh baby!
As to the drugs, I am ONLY guessing. Trying to figure out Jerry Irvine is trying to figure out why you wife gets mad at you for no reason ... just crazy! I have asked Jerry to comment on my questions and assertions, so lets give him a day a two as he might be busy doing something else in real life.
As to the people back then, yes after an afternoon of flying, it wasn't uncommon for a bong to appear and be passed around, but these are adults, and they have to live with their decisions.
I also believe that Jerry wants model rocketry to exist, grow, and that he make a few bucks along the way. Nothing wrong with self-enterprise ... its what has made the United States of America so friggin powerful on the planet!
No insult to those early people at all. For the record, I had better state the following:
G. Harry Stine - perfect record Vern Estes - perfect record Lee Piester - perfect record Bill Roe - perfect record
Gary R. (aerotech) - perfect record Frank Kosdon - perfect record Korey Kline - perfect record Chuck Rogers - perfect record
Those are just the early pioneers off the top of my head, that to MY knowlege, have never wronged ANYONE! Hope that clears things up.
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snipped-for-privacy@juno.com wrote:
<snip>

your knowledge is incomplete
observe:
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets Subject: Re: [TRA motor certs] USR Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:37:36 -0800
Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed wrote:

representatives authority to an alternate party if the authority granted was non-specific?

The bylaws of the corporation do not allow for proxies for Directors, only for members voting for Directors. You can 'posit' all the authority you want, but there is no framework to allow it.
The bylaws are clear: a quorum of Directors must be PRESENT in order for a meeting to be called to order, and from there, a majority of those present may then conduct the business of the Corporation.
I repeat: using proxies by Directors is not in the bylaws. Any actions taken under such auspices are not legal.
David Erbas-White
=RayDunakin wrote:

And again, Ray, this is obviously not getting through to you.
It doesn't matter if every Director gave Chuck their proxies and he voted exactly the way they wanted. Proxies are not valid for Directors unless specifically enumerated in the bylaws. They are not enumerated in the TRA bylaws, in fact, there is explicit wording requiring the PRESENCE of Directors for a quorum.
Therefore, even if Chuck voted the way the Directors 'would have' voted (only we'll never know, because part of the process of being a Director involves listening to arguments), it was an ILLEGAL vote, thus it has no standing in law. Why do I say law? Because the bylaws are a legal agreement that the Corporation has made with the government, in order to be granted 'corporate' status. That is why bylaws must be submitted to the Secretary of State for approval.
Why is the value of argument important? Because that is part of the policy/decision making process. I once chaired a board that had (IIRC) thirteen members. We were taking a vote over an extremely volatile issue for the group. At the beginning of the discussion I asked for a 'sense of the room' as to how they were leaning, and it was 2 for, 11 against. After the argument/discussion was completed, it was 13 for, none against (I felt like in "12 Angry Men" <G>).
I'm hoping this will eventually sink in, but I'm beginning to have my doubts.
David Erbas-White
=RayDunakin wrote:

Ray,
Listen carefully. Sit down, make sure there are no distractions, and concentrate...
1) The by-laws define how a Director's meeting is held. 2) In order to use proxies, the use of proxies must be defined in the by-laws. 3) The by-laws require a Director's 'presence' in order to form a quorum. 4) Holding a meeting and taking action on behalf of the corporation outside of the constraints outlined in the by-laws makes the meeting invalid (illegal), and any party who so chooses would be able to bring legal action against TRA (and win). Further, it could lead to dissolution of the corporation.
Was that clear enough for you? Or do we need to break it down even more?
Frankly, your inability to see that TRA has, in fact, done 'bad things' is getting a bit tiresome. I'm all for TRA, I'd like them to clean up their act, and in some regards they've begun to do that. But one of the reasons they have been able to get away with things for SOO long is the ostrich approach that you are the poster-boy for.
David Erbas-White
=RayDunakin wrote:

Then obviously you've never been involved in contracts, by-laws, or corporations.
I appreciate your pointing out that TRA had previously taken illegal actions, as well...
Just because they had a 'precedent' of using proxies does not make it legal. If they want to use proxies, they have a path to do so--it's called changing the by-laws (and re-filing them with the Secretary of State). Otherwise, any actions taken under those circumstances were not legal actions.
If Ed Tindell resigned, though, he certainly had the right to do so, and it didn't need to be at a meeting--but the meeting itself was never 'legal'.
David Erbas-White
=W. E. Fred Wallace wrote:

Fred,
Replied on list...
First, IANAL.
Second, I do not have a page and paragraph to cite for you, as IANAL. However, I have been involved in the past over a period now spanning decades in 3 separate 501(c)3 non-profit organizations, sat in all the legal meetings during the formation of one of them, was Chairman of one, and was involved as a Director in the change and resubmission of by-laws. These organizations ranged in size from (on the low end) 800 members to (on the high end) upwards of 10,000 members. I am also currently involved with the establishment of another 501(c)3 non-profit, which I'll be happy to announce here as soon as its complete (it is space related, not hobby related).
Further, as a businessman, I've been involved in many 'contract' cases, and (not to be immodest) have never been found to be wrong when I've raised a 'legal' question in relation to both business contracts and the non-profit corporation interactions--some of the lawyers involved were somewhat shocked to find out that I WASN'T a lawyer.
Finally, I have informally discussed this situation with a friend, who is a lawyer, and specializes in just this kind of stuff (I have no need to pay him to provide me with the specific cites related to this, I'm not THAT interested <G>). Those are my qualifications and sources.
If you would like to approach it from the common sense point of view, simply read the by-laws, and they are plain on their face. First, the by-laws make SPECIFIC PROVISION for members to vote for the directors and officers by proxy. Second, the by-laws make SPECIFIC REFERENCE to the presence of a certain number of directors to call a meeting. Third, (and this is indirectly inferred from the first), if the by-laws had MEANT to allow the use of proxies by directors, they would have been enumerated, just as they were for members, and reference for them would have been made in relation to the presence of directors for a quorum.
There are further problems, in that in order to use a proxy for a vote, the motion itself must be published (at least to the directors and in the minutes) with sufficient notice (I do not know if this was done, I'm simply raising it as a question), and the proxy can only be for predetermined, specific actions, such as a) solely for purposes of quorum, or b) for quorum and to vote specifically on a specific motion. I am unaware of a 'blanket proxy', as this would allow for one individual to run a corporation by themselves, but with the 'corporate' mantle, which is precisely the opposite of the reason for a corporations existence.
BTW, as I write this, I'm vaguely remembering one of the times we had to change the by-laws of one of the organizations (it was about 15 years ago, so my memory is a little hazy about the specifics), but I believe it was something 'similar' in that we had 'assumed' that certain things that were assigned to the 'members' also applied to the directors, and it did not, thus the by-laws had to be amended to reflect what our 'belief' was.
I hope this sufficiently answers your questions...
David Erbas-White

IIRC Ed did not resign as president. He was voted out off office by an illegal coup staged by Rogers. Later, he did resign in disgust from what was left as Tripoli. And the organization has been in CYA mode ever since.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets Subject: Re: [TRA motor certs] USR Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 06:37:10 -0500
On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 05:57:51 +0000, RayDunakin wrote:

Er... you seem to have confused proxy voting, a corporate standard, with absentee balloting... another corporate standard.
If the parameters given are correct then yes, they relinquished their votes.
And if the TRA bylaws mandated presence by Directors, and did not mention proxies for Directors, then it was unconstitutional.
And if it had occured in Indiana with a non-profit corporation with the same constitutional setup it would have been quite illegal.

First become familar with the difference between proxies nd absentee ballots.

No.
The simple facts stated here in the group in regards to various TRA activities, as verified by the TRA and supporters themselves, make it very clear that the TRA lacks the constitutional setup, regulatory background, and bureaucratic experience base to be making the decisions it makes for the people the claims to be making them for.
And the hobby suffers for this lack.
It is a cowboy-style group. Which is not a bad thing except that it has taken on regulatory powers and government cognizance... without the neccessary background to do the job properly.
TRA is on an earnest well meant "world-saving!" power-trip... but the bill for this vacation from reality has come due.
And thousands in the hobby are paying the price.
-- Chuck Stewart
=original thread at http://tinyurl.com/coodw and http://tinyurl.com/cu6vq
- iz
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I thought you went bye-bye? Iz Jerry still your hero?
How's the mosaic coming along? Iz it time to reveal it yet? ;-)
--
Joe Michel
NAR 82797 L2
  Click to see the full signature.
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snipped-for-privacy@acceptable-gains.net wrote:

Great, the self-appointed Savior of Rocketry crawls out from under his rock to spew some more nonsense.
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He did limit his "nonsense" (Dunakinism) to fact.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
  Click to see the full signature.
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snipped-for-privacy@acceptable-gains.net wrote:

So what's your point? As it turned out, (on advise of a corp. attorney), "Proxy voting" is an excepted way of accomplishing BOD voting, unless specifically forbidden by the corp. charter, (in most states). Did you find something to the contrary in Alaska coperate law, during your futile attempt to dig up frozen dirt?? Page and par., PLEASE....
Fred
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W. E. Fred Wallace wrote:

Excepted = unusual Accepted = usual
Please say what you mean.
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Steve Decker wrote:

Thank you Steve.. Now you can crawl back under your rock, (PLEASE)..
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W. E. Fred Wallace wrote:

Whatever you say, Cletus.
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Gus wrote:

The "MORON" in you appears to be surfacing again... Attended any launches lately?
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W. E. Fred Wallace wrote:

YOU can't use the language properly. I think that more than qualifies you for the appelation you try to place upon me.
And FYI, I attended a launch last month (not PARA, in case you're wondering).
How about you?
Probably, you and Brandine and Q-Bert never leave the trailer.
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steve decker wrote:

My mistake, you are a moron. I must of been having a senior moment..

I'm sure it wasn't PARA, as I hear it, you are not the most welcome of guests.

Yes, at least monthly, tomorrow Culpepper..

See previous statement concerning you moron status..
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W. E. Fred Wallace wrote: . I must of been having a senior moment..
Should be "must have" not "must of"
Oh Cletus, you never fail to amaze me with your pithy rejoinders!

Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see.

Sorry, Cletus, no such town in Virginia. Perhaps you meant Culpeper?
Maybe you can bring your coloring book with you. I understand it has pretty pictures of horsies.

"your" not "you".
Methinks you've been sniffing too much AP, Cletus!
Feel free to drop me a line when you can string together a complete sentence.
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steve decker blathered:

If that's all it takes to amaze you, I have many pithy rejoinders. In person you would find some quite punishing..

Fact is hard to refute, isn't it??? Is that the best you can do?

You should come to the launch and introduce yourself..

Correction made, do you now understand your moron status???

Other than on an open forum, not a chance.
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On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 20:17:29 -0500, "W. E. Fred Wallace"

As I've said before - anytime, anywhere.

I've been to Culpeper before. Why would I introduce myself? You can't speak English anyway, Cletus.
Much as I love making fun of the retarded, I'll leave it at this:
"Your honor, I refer the court to the case of rubber vs. glue".
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Whenever you feel lucky moron....
steve decker blathered again:

See you tomorrow, if you feel lucky..

Because doing so would help you with your moron problem..

Look me up if you ever feel lucky..
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On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 20:17:29 -0500, "W. E. Fred Wallace"

What do you expect from an NJ government employee? I think he is the guy that leans on the rake while one guy digs and the other 5 guys watch.
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I saw Fred at MDRA a few weeks ago. Thanks for not coming to PARA.
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On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 20:44:42 -0500, Phil Stein

You're welcome.
I've got better things to do.
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