[saverocketrylater.tra]

Rick Dickinson wrote:


I know that, Rick. But Jerry seems to think your opinion is more authoritative than the ATF's published statement, and uses your words as "proof" that the ATF supposedly does not require LEMPs for motor manufacturers. The ATF clearly DOES require that permit, and they have publically said so.

First off, the ruling you refer to was contradicted by the judge's subsequent ruling, and in that later ruling the judge specifically said that the issue of whether motors are PADs was not before the court at that time. We had to amend the suit to include that issue, and he has not yet ruled on it.
Secondly, your opinion of whether we should take it at "face value" is irrelevant to what the ATF actually requires. You and I both know that the ATF _should_ recognise and accept the PAD exemption for rocket motors, but the fact of the matter is that they do NOT.

Again, I am well aware of what the regs say. That's not the issue. ATF policy and enforcement is the issue. They have the legal authority to interpret the regs as they see fit, and enforce that interpretation, and only the judge can change that. So far, that hasn't happened. Also, it should be noted that there wasn't even a partial ruling back when Jerry's motors were decertified for lack of LEMPs (not to mention lack of DOT approvals).

Ah, but it's not your neck on the line. Any manufacturer who decided to renounce his LEMP would be shut down by ATF, and have to spend time and money fighting it in court. None of the legitimate manufacturers can afford to do that, and even Jerry has enough sense to keep his operations cloaked in secrecy to avoid ATF "interaction".
P
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Dear Ray: it would be easier just to post the results of the delay testing by TRA. Showing a proof that the job was done is easier than to prove that the job wasn't. Btw... how many samples of each motor are fired before accepting a motor?
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wrote:

I contacted Paul Holmes the TMT Chairman and asked about delay testing. He said they test that delays are within NFPA specs. That seems reasonable to me. Obviously, the other certification testing is similar between all the organizations.
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Did you ask for the test results? You know, the thrust curves with the ejection "tick" on it?
Of course not. You took his "word" that something occured for every motor that "we all" (certainly those of us who have participated in several TMT tests and watched carefully what results or reports have emerged from same.) know for a fact has NOT occured.
You can bait and blather otherwise, but I am a first hand witness to this one.
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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wrote:

I have no reason not to believe Paul.
You say you are a first hand witness. When was the last time you witnessed it? I doubt that you have witnessed it recently. Who was the last TMT Chairmen that you watched?
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

You're confusing test data with test results. The results are that the motors passed. Just like getting a degree from college, the proof of the degree is the diploma. You don't have to show employers every paper you ever wrote to get that degree.

You do not KNOW that, and it is not a fact. It's conjecture and opinion. Also, you were only present at a few TMT tests during the start of the testing program back in the late 80's or thereabout.
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Huh?
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

jerry, ARE YOU STUPID, or just pretending to be STUPID?
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

After a usr "firestarter" K motor blew up on the test stand, destroying it, jerry stopped showing up.
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On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:47:38 GMT, Dave Grayvis

When is Jerry going to pay for that?
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Phil Stein wrote:

I'm sure it's on zippy's list of things to do.
Oh wait a minute, I meant the list of things to ignore.
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Interesting analogy. My employer can get a copy of my transcript from my college, to verify that I really have the degree I claim to have. And they can find out if I was an A or a C student (maybe if I were a C student, I could be president :-) ) I.E. they can access the data.
Why is it that TRA remains so secretive about delay test data? Don't we the consumers of HPR motors have the right to know if our 10 second delay is really 10, or maybe 8 or 12 or 3 or 21 seconds? What is so unreasonalbe about asking TMT to publish the results of the delay tests?
It's been a decade since Tom fraudulently extended John's certifications to cover delay values John never tested, or motors that were not tested or failed testing due to delay errors. Half a dozen TMT chairs since Tom have done nothing to rectify this fraud, or release the current delay test data. What's the big secret?
The only reason I can think of for keeping the data a secret is that motors that fail delay specs are being certified, and if exposed, it will prove that TRA motor certification is a fraud. As long as the secrecy remains, so remains the appearance of fraud.
Any one who disagrees with that must either be part of the fraud, or a complete idiot. Clear the air once and for all. Publish the TMT delay test data.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Vulcans believe peace should not depend on force. -- Amanda, "Journey to Babel," stardate 3842.3
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Bob Kaplow wrote:

And yet once again, I ask, since you've stated publicly that you have contacted NFPA about these purported 'violations', what the response was.
Because, once again, if the authorities are not worried about it, then it seems that you are attempting to create a problem where none exists.
Is it possible/conceivable that this could have been an issue? Certainly. But did it occur? No. There are NO (to the best of my knowledge) legal claims that ever came about because of the presence/absence of the delay testing information. Further, in most circumstances, any legal action would have been civil, not criminal (i.e., the delay causing damage to a vehicle).
I would further add that (based on the flights I've seen over the years) that incorrect delays are only one very small percentage of what can/does go wrong in a rocket. If you're going to claim this is a tremendous safety issue, then we would (logically) be having to add double- or triple-redundant systems in every flight, just to make sure that things like this don't occur.
What protects people/property from problems when flying, more than anything else, are the safety codes regarding distances, and placement of people away from the ballistic path of a rocket.
I agree that it would be nice, and convenient, to have this data made public. I don't agree that it's a legal requirement (though I have to admit to being on the fence, I feel I could safely argue pro- or con on it), but it is essentially a non-issue.
And I don't base my delay measurements or delay shortening needs on the purported 'norm'. There are far too many variables involved that I would rely on that, so my experience with a given motor/rocket combination weighs far more than what all the 'theory' predicts.
David Erbas-White
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Bob Kaplow wrote:

Does that data include the actual tests you took, and the papers you wrote? I doubt it.

You don't need the test data for that. All you need to know is that it passed.

Seems like a lot of trouble to me, just to gratify one complainer who's not even a TRA member.

Allegedly.
Or maybe they've found some other way to cert the delays.

Yes, without the actual data one could theorize that the delays weren't tested. But you'd have no proof either way. Seems to me, if you're that suspicious, would you believe the data if they showed it to you?
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Bob Kaplow wrote:

Is it truly secretive, or just not bothering to publish, because the majority of Tripoli's members don't care?

If the motors have subsequently been tested, they're not perpetuating any fraud. I don't question that something was fishy subsequent to John, but I very much believe that Sue, and TMT Chairs since, have tested what they claim to have tested.

Either that, or their world isn't as black and white as yours, Bob.
-Kevin
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

When were you a participant in a TMT motor testing process????

But not a credible witness, if your past history of "taking liberties with the truth" are an indicator... #! rnews 1772 Xref: xyzzy comp.windows.x.motif:17905 Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.motif Path: xyzzy!nntp
Subject: Re: Simple Newbie question X-Nntp-Posting-Host: xpc-ps-58.nw.nos.boeing.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: snipped-for-privacy@news.boeing.com (Boeing NNTP News Access) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Boeing X-Accept-Language: en
Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:08:15 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD Boeing Kit (Windows NT 5.0; U)
The Loeki wrote:

You need to show us the code for function StartRDSesktop
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Fred L. Kleinschmidt
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Dave Grayvis wrote:

Jerry is way past stupid, he is living the life stile..(:-)
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Up to G: 11 Up to M: 3 Otherwise: 1
But at least one of EACH DELAY must be tested per ALL NFPA-1125 standards, and per TMT rules, and S&T rules.
So failing to test and report the results is a KNOWN VIOLATION.
Could easily be a CRIME in 32 states.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

The motor testing _results_ are no secret. Either a motor passes testing, or it fails. 
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