[saverocketrylater.tra]

In my personal opinion, it's pretty clear that TMT has had a somewhat "checkered" past, filled with accusations of impropriety, and some pretty convincing, if not absolute, circumstantial evidence of data-fudging (as alleged by a former TMT chair). I find it hard to believe that any agency, struggling to put those "bad times" behind them, would fail to "go overboard" in demonstrating their adherance to the straight and narrow.

Making the process as open and as transparent as possible, and presenting all of the collected motor testing data on their web site, would seem to me to be a simple, and cost-effective, way to regain the trust of the entire rocketry community. The fact that TMT continues to adhere to a reporting system where "pass/fail" and total impulse are just about the only data reported about a motor test just boggles my mind.

Even if all of the past accusations about impropriety are completely false, what does TMT have to gain by refusing to publish complete motor test data? All that they accomplish is to give their detractors a reason to complain. Placing the raw test data on their web site has viirtually zero incremental cost for TRA, and would have the immense benefit of finally getting their detractors to shut up about it.

I know I'm getting tired of hearing about it, and I'm not even a TRA member.

- Rick "One man's opinion" Dickinson

Jerry is way past stupid, he is living the life stile..(:-)

So what does the states have to do with you being compliance with TRA and NAR requirements?

The following are all links from the TMT test page-

Like NAR, there is some missing data but hey, the people that do it are worth every penny they are paid. 8-) WHat is wrong with what is there? Please look at all the pages / links and then tell me that total impulse is the only thing posted there.

As a dues paying TRA member, I am satisfied with what is there. who tests and how they test. Apparently, so is NAR S&T and CAR CMT. That is good enough for me.

As far as getting over 'bad times,' all I've ever seen is accusations by people that seem to have an axe to grind. I don't doubt that it could have happened but it is so far into the past that it is no longer relevent to most people (including me.)

Actually, that's probably something Jerry has in common with the states. States probably aren't compliant with NAR & TRA requirements either.

ROTFLMAO

Why did you lie by saying that the ATF does not require LEMPs for motor manufacturers? Why are you telling manufacturers to disobey the ATF? Why are you telling everyone that you are in compliance with the ATF without a LEMP, when the ATF says that rocket motor manufacturers must have LEMPs?

k

Bob, which of the two claims I made (which you quoted above) do you take issue with?

The first claim is that Jerry has failed to provide any proof that TRA does not currently test motor delays. (And please note, Jerry's statement is in the present tense and does not refer to your ancient allegations.) Now, if you think I'm wrong, and Jerry has posted proof that TRA does not currently test motor delays, please be so kind as to instruct us all where to find that proof, because it sure as hell isn't in any of the crap he's posting here.

My second claim was that Jerry has been ruled a vexatious litigant by the courts. I said I have proof and would provide it if requested, so here it is. This is the case summary, and if that's not good enough for you, you can use the case number to look it up yourself:

Case Summary Case Number: KC028578 GERALD A. IRVINE VS FRANKLIN KOSDON Filing Date: 07/09/1998 Proceedings Held (Proceeding dates listed in descending order)

05/03/1999 at 08:30 am in department A, Oki, Dan Thomas, Presiding Motion for Judgment on Pleadings (SANCTIONS TO HAVE PLTF DECLARED VEX LITIGANT) - Motion Granted

There is no requirement to do that, and personally I think it would be a waste of time. Now, you are free to believe that Paul Holmes is a lying scumbucket who doesn't do what he says he did. But without any proof of it, that's just your opinion. Furthermore, I've seen nothing that would lead any reasonable person to believe that Mr. Holmes is a liar.=20

=F5

It's good enough for NFPA too.

Correct on both counts. It's certainly possible that some short cuts were taken in the early days of trying to get the (volunteer) cert program up and running. Not proven, but possible. If it happened, it was necessary at that stage and I don't have a problem with it; nor do I believe that it has anything to do with current practice.

It's also completely unrelated to Jerry's lack of ATF, DOT and CSFM permits, which is the reason why he can't get his motors certified.



I know that, Rick. But Jerry seems to think your opinion is more authoritative than the ATF's published statement, and uses your words as "proof" that the ATF supposedly does not require LEMPs for motor manufacturers. The ATF clearly DOES require that permit, and they have publically said so.

First off, the ruling you refer to was contradicted by the judge's subsequent ruling, and in that later ruling the judge specifically said that the issue of whether motors are PADs was not before the court at that time. We had to amend the suit to include that issue, and he has not yet ruled on it.

Secondly, your opinion of whether we should take it at "face value" is irrelevant to what the ATF actually requires. You and I both know that the ATF _should_ recognise and accept the PAD exemption for rocket motors, but the fact of the matter is that they do NOT.

Again, I am well aware of what the regs say. That's not the issue. ATF policy and enforcement is the issue. They have the legal authority to interpret the regs as they see fit, and enforce that interpretation, and only the judge can change that. So far, that hasn't happened. Also, it should be noted that there wasn't even a partial ruling back when Jerry's motors were decertified for lack of LEMPs (not to mention lack of DOT approvals).

Ah, but it's not your neck on the line. Any manufacturer who decided to renounce his LEMP would be shut down by ATF, and have to spend time and money fighting it in court. None of the legitimate manufacturers can afford to do that, and even Jerry has enough sense to keep his operations cloaked in secrecy to avoid ATF "interaction".

P

Ray,

The responses to this from Bob and Jerry should really be good or non existent. I can't wait. (;-)

Fred

Considering the erratic flight, you still nailed it pretty darn good.

Fred

Chuck Rudy wrote:

Hey! Maybe he's working on a new hybrid? He tried hot air and bullshit but didn't get anywhere with that.

steve

Quiet everyone, Jerry is giving a sermon about ethics. This should be good!

Here's an excerpt you'll not want to miss...

"When purposfully trying to deceive a government agency, it's always best to do so alone for secrecy. However, never tell anyone your're working alone. Rather, tell them you work for a company of less than two individuals, so blame can be deflected to the company, rather than yourself."

Jerry Irvine

ROTFLMAO!!!

Bob Kaplow wrote:

Oh Bob. It must be so painful to live in such a distrusting world. I can only imagine the agony you feel when you visit the dentist and must take at face value the silly diploma on the wall. I know deep inside you're screaming, "PROVE IT! SHOW ME YOUR COLLEGE TEST DATA!"

steve

LOL!!!