Skippy -vs- DOT

What "fiduciary duty"?. Were you paying Fred a fee for his service?

It is your "fiduciary duty" as the "manufacturer", to get your own paperwork in order.

Reply to
Dave Grayvis
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240 months would be better.
Reply to
Dave Grayvis

No, of course not, because then you'd have to rat out your Louis Kulpa buddy, who sure seems to have an awful lot of motors. Especially since he's recently sent someone an email indicating that he'll soon have more for sale.

Of course, you don't know anything about that. Not like he has a website on your server or anything....

Reply to
Kevin Trojanowski

Soon is not the same as now.

He does not list on ROL auctions.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

So if I order something that _I_ believe would violate some regulation to send to me, to what extent does that make me a party to the violation?

-dave w

Reply to
David Weinshenker

(kind of indicates that all his rants about TRA and NAR are meaningless!)

Reply to
GCGassaway

I guess that would also apply "Dynamic Propellent Systems, LLC" DOT carelessly misspelled the name, by using an 'e' where an 'a' should have been used. (Ironically, the reverse of something you do all the time.) But, unfortunately, they didn't misspell "Jerry Irvine" and they did use "jointly and severally".

But it was was what you WROTE on that governmental approved paperwork that caused the problem. "Model Airplane Parts" is kind of a stretch for describing rocket motors; unless maybe you were shipping to someone you had reason to believe was making, say, a large Junkers Ju 88A-2 model, which did use rocket assisted take off; in which case real rocket motors would be required for authenticity. How about getting right up in an administrators face at a hearing and grilling him on THAT one in a real condesceding and sarcastic tone? I'd pay money to witness that.

Well then, get tough with them. We can't have a government entity that goes around LYING!! Notify them that you "reserve the right" to file a lawsuit against them for the duration of your life plus 30 years, like you have done to others.

difference...

Reply to
Fred B

Today. But he sure did a few months back.

Reply to
Kevin Trojanowski

You have misspoken Jerry.. I never had fiduciary responsibility to you, in any form. My fiduciary responsibility was and is, to the organization and BOD I represented then and now. That responsibility includes, protecting the organization from becoming involved in unscrupulous and illegal ventures, propagated by individuals, such as yourself. If you did not understand that concept then, I hope you do now.

As a human being, I feel sorry for you and what has befallen you. However, your problems were and are of your own making. You alone made the decisions, resulting in the punitive actions taken by DOT against you and your entities. As a result, and after all the name calling and attacks on my integrity, by you and your supporters, I reluctantly feel vindicated. Having said that, I also feel somewhat ashamed of some of my responses to you, over the last several months; "in particular the last few days". I regret many of those comments, especially those recently, that by their content, pour salt on the wound. Those type of comments are below the standards I expect from others and myself, and are inexcusable, regardless of any provocation. I apologize to you for those comments. I will do my best to limit further comment, to simple explanations, without personal attack commentary, (that is if I respond at all).

Good luck Jerry. BTW, email filter is off.

Fred

PS. To the individual, who's email response helped reinforce and resurface my missplaced judgement, "thanks".

Reply to
W. E.Fred Wallace

Considering retaliation / snitching would be an admission that you know you did something wrong, it would be pretty dumb to do otherwise.

Reply to
Phil Stein

Reply to
Phil Stein

Hmmm... a fairly well written letter of apology.

As I read your posts the last few weeks, I had assumed your standards for human behaviour and your concepts of Honour, Dignity, and Integrity and were much lower...

We shall see...

As I view the 'posted' and official arguments and the like in TRA, NAR, NFPA, BATFE, etc., and the rocket community in general... it is no wonder that government organizations are able to legislate against your sport. There appears to be NO 'unifying' body.... and as Gary Bolles NAR 82636 has said, it's more a loose grouping of little fishbowls.

It would seem to me, that the groups involved have become too focused on limiting the Freedoms of the Members themselves...

... rather than concentrating on limiting the Power of the Government to interfere.

Reply to
Mark

He apologized for salt in the wounds recently and nothing else preceeding that for years.

Especially his words to the DOT when he was charged with seeking "approvals".

[whether] "Mr. Irvine has complied with the instructions provided him, with no response from your office unless he has taken liberties with the truth, there are problems he has failed to disclose, resulting in a delay in the response from you or your office, and or both."

- W.E. "Fred" Wallace, MDRA 6-26-01 letter to DOT

I believe it has NOT changed.

Point!!

At war with each other no less.

Point!!

You rock.

This shoud be in the FAQ.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Thanks..

Yes, I allowed my self to respond at or below the degraded level of many of the postings I responded to.

I simply disagree, and am not sure I understand, completely, what you mean. Examples would be helpful.

Fred

Reply to
W. E.Fred Wallace

So you disagree mindlessly.

You got yours.

Everyone else is on their own.

Examples:

Expecting any aspect of rocket motors to have LEUP's or magazines, EVER.

Rules at clubs that exceed the minimal legal requirements. UKRA in England for example does NOT do this. Both NAR and TRA clearly do do that.

Start there.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

We live in a group of older homes, ours is 1807. While there are other older homes in the township this is the only cluster of older homes. This guy worked with the township in secret to ram a historic district down our throats telling us overnight we were not permitted to do anything to our houses with out the permission in writing of the stuffed shirt Republican supervisors. We lost the right to paint our house a different color, put a new roof on it, change a window, or (God forbid) put on an addition. 2 families in this village were for it and 8 were against. Despite the fact the 8 families who did not want it were glad to put it to a vote of the property owners the supervisors rubber stamped the district. The two families who were for it were going to sell their houses and figured a historic district would increease the value.

But, when one family tried to sell their house it was put up for $390,000, they got $240,000, well below the market value for the house. So now we all suffer from regulation by the township officials all because a couple creeps sold us out. Our houses are now worth about 80% of what they should be.

He discovered he has terminal prostate and blood cancer. He sits all alone on the porch of his house. No one wants anything to do with him. It's a hell of a legacy to leave behind, but he has reaped that which he sowed.

Whenever politicians do anything controversial on a local level they look for a someone who will sell out their neighbors and do the dirty work so they stay squeaky clean. And normally they have to schmooze them, this rat volunteered. Rats make me sick.

We could turn it all around in court, and since those on the township board represent several different law firms they would be glad for us to feed the lawyers for 10 years. They would be able to draw a salary from the township to represent them while we feed their friends elsewhere in town. Our township needs an enema.

Reply to
Chuck Rudy

How can I respond to such reasoning Jerry, other than you did not help with any examples. Perhaps you can try again.

The requirements you mention are requirements put into place by government agencies. National organizations would be foolish to not advise members of those requirements, and expect the rrequirements to be followed by motor manufactures the organization transacts business with, i.e. certification shipments: Doing so, also reasonably assures members will not be subject to receiving illegally produced class 1 hazmat in violation of DOT commerce rules as most recently demonstrated, by recent DOT actions.

Of course, UKRA is not subject to our government regulations, now are they?

Fred

Reply to
W. E.Fred Wallace

Easy to do. Guilty of it myself.

Sometimes we forget that every written utterance can be construed as 'representative' of the hobby, and of ourselves, by those who don't know us well. Sometimes our 'word' alone is enough to influence people for a lifetime.

As a father, I have come to realize that flippant or offhand comments (even if *I* considered them humourous) can leave a negative and lasting impression. My eldest daughter still won't eat ham because I asked her to 'Please pass me the pig butt' during a Christmas dinner when she was 4. She won't eat ribs because I called them 'Dragon Toes' at a renaissance fair three months later. She remembers these incidents distinctly... and apparently will, forever.

Hmmm... and of course, I could very well be wrong. But 'perception' is reality for many.

I've been looking into some of the corollaries between the NAR and NRA. It's astonishing how much we have in common. Nose cone and bullet shapes have identical descriptions and meanings... the few differences I see between the two hobbies is propellant mass and methode of 'launching'.

On the other hand, I've also been looking into a sport that has all but regulated itself to death... fireworks.

We've a lot in common with both hobbies... but the approach taken by each has been vastly different.

Rocketry seems to be straddling the fence between the NRA and Fireworks... and can't quite seem to make up it's mind which way it wants to be led... the leadership appears to be lacking, a single body to promote the Hobby is non-existent... there is no focus, no goal, and doesn't appear to be any 'point' to even having the hobby exist for any reason... much like fireworks.

It seems that you hobby is willing to 'wait' until there is some governmental restriction to act against, rather than being proactive in promoting the NEED for the hobby.

The NRA can stand on 'self-defense and 'hunting' issues, even though there are thousands of people killed each year due to gun and hunting accidents...

The Fireworks industry can stand on the few holidays and special occasions that 'require' fireworks, and therefore their industry. Their safety record is 'good'... even with the occasional plant fires, property damage, and personal injury. But the 'amateur is hard to find... certifications are needed at every level, finding a place to 'launch and test' the fireworks are almost non-existent.

The safety aspects of Rocketry is fantastic, but it has ONLY one leg to stand on that will be understood.

The promotion and advancement of the Young Scientist...

*Meaningful advancements* to technology by the young (and old) amateur rocket scientist are being done as we speak... but little credit is given or made known of these accomplishments except within this small community...

And with the advent of 'electronics', GPS, and the like, a whole new world of Experimentation has opened up to the older inquisitive mind. Serious research papers and reports are available on-line. Autonomous recovery systems, improved apogee detection, safer propellants, exotic construction materials and techniques... the list is quite long.

Hands on Science Hobbies are being shut down... unless one wishes to look at the stars from ones back yard, or perform 'thought experiments' in Physics... or look for interesting geological rocks and formations that can 'only' be walked to because you can't ride a motor vehicle to the site.

Strong leadership in an overseeing body will recognize the many resources available. They can rally small weak groups into a single strong forum. There are dozens of Amateur Science Hobby groups that are suffering from the type of persecution that we do... many directly related to Rocketry... Amateur Chemistry is almost dead, the glassware can be used to make drugs... and chemicals are difficult to obtain.

Strong leadership will turn those scientific reports (done by individuals as Amateur Scientists) into Government Grants that can fund additional experiments and allow an organization to operate under the umbrella of Government funding...

The Government has been very concerned about our children's math and science skills for almost 30 years... what other hobby combines Math, Science, Physics, and Art the way this hobby can?

Think about it Fred, you should be standing on a stump, screaming to the government that this 'hobby' should be a large part of the Curriculum of all schools... it's the answer to one of thier concerns! Come up with a plan to incorporate it into a schools curriculum... a test case, any school... 6th grade through 9th.

But my perception is, that the current leadership is hell bent towards being a fireworks entity... rather than extolling the virtues of how this hobby can influence the next generation of Amateur Scientist.

Reply to
Mark

Except I did. Moron.

You are stupid.

Pre-lawsuit judgement:

27 CFR 555.141-a-8 Post-lawsuit judgement 27 CFR 555.141-a-8.

You act as if it never existed and still does not.

Basis for a claim of moron.

No they are subject to theirs and do not add additional rules.

NAR/TRA are subject to ours and add many additional rules.

You are stupid.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Excellent points! I've been bemoaning the loss of the 'hobbyist' in electronics for years (back when there was Heathkit, Radio Shack Perf-Board Kits, and you could wire-wrap an S100 computer). It's just as true of the rocket industry, in MANY ways, but I just didn't "see" it.

I've been doing my best for the past several years to promote rocketry to kids, I guess I'll just have to redouble my efforts.

Hmm... There's something wrong here, though.

I've read two wonderful posts on rmr within the past hour. There MUST be a rip in the space/time continum or something...

David Erbas-White

Reply to
David Erbas-White

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