Skippy -vs- DOT

As I remember it; there are technical discrepancies, such as a misplaced label or other such discrepancies that require administrative reporting, no big deal and more of a QA type discrepancy, but reportable none the less. As long as the discrepancy is not a habitual problem no harm no foul and warnings are the usual result. On the other hand receiving a hazmat shipment of rocket motors marked as "model airplane parts", when shipping in commerce requires appropriate plackarding, packaging, and MSDS paperwork, is not accomplished, reporting to DOT is required. Failure of a receiver to report such a violation subjects the receiver to the wrath of the DOT, especially if the receiver is a commercial entity such as a vender maintains a hazmat storage. Most all hazmat, that includes

1.4c, requires cradle to the grave tracking. That means, from manufacture, all the way down the supply chain to issue for consumption/use. I'll get you a cite from my desk top procedure tomorrow.

Fred

Not if you have a government issued piece of paper that expired because it was not properly transferred (as the law required it to be) back in

1993...

David Erbas-White

What piece of paper would that be?

Jerry,

WHAT are you talking about?!?

David Erbas-White

Snipped

How are PADS exempt from DOT Regs?

What was your intent, when you shipped rocket motors labeled as "model aircraft parts"?

And this, just days after you were told by the DOT, in no uncertain terms, that you/dpt/usr were not legal to ship.

Explain your actions.

So, despite what you told the DOT, usr does exist?

Per the TRA/NAR BOD/BOT, they are exempt in the case of "fully assembled rocket motors". Reloads are still a question....

I really do think that Skippy has a mental medical condition ... maybe we shouldn't be so hard on the poor little roo ... maybe just give him some paper slippers and smile at him alot?

Wouldn't have it any other way..

Fred

Per the TRA/NAR BOD/BOT they are morons.

From 27 CFR 55.11, "Propellant Actuated Device. Any tool or special mechanized device or gas generator system which is actuated by a propellant or which releases and directs work through a propellant charge."

This definition is what is referred to in 27 CFR 55.141(a)(8)

55.141 exemptions (a) (8) Gasoline, fertilizers, propellant actuated devices, or propellant actuated industrial tools manufactured, imported, or distributed for their intended purposes.

From this, it is commonly understood that as long as the PAD are manufactured, imported, or distributed for their intended purpose, they are exempt from treatment as explosives per 27 CFR and other laws. There is no size or volume limitation on what is exempted.

See

page 10 (page 62 of the "Orange Book")

1. Who must meet storage requirements? All persons who store explosive materials must store them in conformity with the provisions of Subpart K of the regulations, unless the person or the materials are exempt from regulation. [18 U.S.C. 842(j), 845; 27 CFR 55.29, 55.141, 55.164,

55.201(a)]

Note the reference to 55.141.

Submit the PO.

Dave Grayvis aka Brian Teeling.

For the last time, provide the paperwork, I will not consider dealing with you, unless you do.

Fred

Yes.

If you go to the DOT web page, there is a link to violation summaries by year of violations and enforcement penalties. From my observation, it takes a serious discrepancy to result in fine assessments.

Civil penalties, like Jerry's, can be assessed to both the individual and the company, in my case, that would be me and my employer, you know the one with the, "Forever New Frontiers" logo.(;-)

I know you are not trying to pick. I am also sometimes troubled by the implications, but then I remember the Value Jet crash and listening to excerpts from the cockpit voice tape and I understand why. I live in the DC metro area of MD. On several occasions over the past several years, improperly marked and unknown hazmat laden trucks have had accidents, resulting in slow or unprepared response by rescue and emergency folks, because of the unknown hazmat condition. Sorry, I'm starting to preach; I'll shut up, need to get some sleep anyway.

Fred

That's quite a complement. Imagine if he were a rank-beginner doofus...

.com/2hmgv

I say we just let the Roo do what ever he pleases ... as his website says ... Skippy should be reveared and loved and lionized ... he is the Howard Cosell of Rocketry ... all hail the Roo ... the silly rabid roo skippy!

Nothing personal Jerry. But it's been over 12 years since the last time I bought a USR motor, and at that time they were apparently being produced by different sources. The quality of most of the motors that I tried WAS good, I'll vouch for that. But they weren't all the same, and I had a couple I and J motors from that era which catoed due to large voids in the propellent. I'm guessing these were not from the same manufacturer as some of the other USR motors that I'd had better experiences with.

Right now, I have no idea what your current product might be like, who made it, or how well it performs.

Anyway, even if they were AT or Cesaroni, $70k is a huge entry fee.

You didn't answer my question??? (BTW are you a Assistant Prof at Emory?)

Fred W

- I'm not suggesting that anyone should knowingly

There's the crux, David. "The shipper feels they are compliant". In the case in point, the shipper is a proven illegal shipper, and the evidence shows that he clearly knew he was illegal (purposfully mislabeled to avoid detection). There are laws about this. It's like pawn shop laws. If you receive stolen goods, even if you don't know they are stolen, you still have commited a crime. I remember reading a DOT form that said much the same thing. If you receive through the mail an illegal shipment, you are guilty of "receiving an illegal shipment". You're only glimmer of hope at that point for not going down in a sting operation (because the DOT is watching the shipment from a past violator) is to report the shipment. Reporting -suspected- violations will not cause you to suffer from civil liability, unless it can be proven you knew the activity was legal.

Me, I'd just rather chose to not deal with slimy low life scum bags, fences, chop shops and stuff like that. Protects me and I don't have to ever "go there" and wonder if I have to turn someone in for something (which I've never had to do). When that guy pulls up and asks if you want to buy speakers from the back of his van? Just say no. When Jerry asks if you want a bunch of rocket motors in a plain brown wrapper? Just say hell no, and run the other way. Your pappy called it "keeping your nose clean", or "if you lay down with dogs, your apt to wake up with fleas."

steve