[TMT] Never honored policy

Yes inquiring minds want to know what lies were told.

Always someone else trying to get you, your never wrong.

I just answered someones question.

I provided proof to what I said, can you do the same.

Casting doubt is not proof, your word against the world.

I guess the world is wrong, not!!!!!

I would not give creedence to everything I read either in the Tripolitan, the Tripoli Report, the Board Minutes or any board communications*

that is not to say that nothing happened, it is just to say that I would not believe anything just because they said it

remember, they also said (by virtue of publication ont the certified motors list) that all motors were properly tested as per the certification requirements

- iz

*I do, however, have high regard for individual board members, none of which were involved in the period you describe

Roy Simps> Wow, I should not have looked it up.

Credibility matters. Unfortunately TRA has very little of it.

Correct. Except the never part.

That seems to be the MO here on rmr.

Jerry

Thanks for looking it up. I'm a much newer member than you are so, I don't have that information.

As of Jerry's last inquisition, they said all he had to do was admit to breaking a waiver & promising not to do it again to get back in. They've also said that if all his paperwork was in order as required by TMT that they'd have no problem testing & certifying his motors.

Phil Ste>>

Phil Stein

which makes more sense? jerry didn't pay, or TRA wouldn't accept?

Can you show us proof of payment?

Of course. TRA wouldn't accept.

You DO know USR was the FIRST company to actually pay its cert fees current with TRA and the next one took MONTHS to do so later, don't you?

It is in the record!

Or does your memory fail you yet again?

Jerry

TRA012

Kinda.

But the inquisition Leader Charles E Rogers was not asked to admit to breaking a waiver for his 25000 foot record flight at my launch where he claimed with a preflight analysis it was good to 13k.

Where is his own self-imposed suspension? :)

Jerry

Nope. Impossible. It was REFUSED by CER. At Black Rock (the final time).

Now that dozens of EX guys are firing motors those who use phenolic cases know precisely how little damage they do to test equipment. So the claim it totaled the equipment is both not supported by the specimen and also by the refusal for the tripling of compensation.

I also donated most of the money (about 20%) for the three prior test stands that were fully paid for but never installed for motor testing.

It is a long sad story at Tripoli I assure you.

Jerry

TRA 012

All of the above intentionally left in...

Usual disclaimer: don't know Jerry except from RMR, don't know Bruce Kelly or Chuck Rogers at all.

HOWEVER, Jerry has been reasonably forthcoming over the years in providing citations for his arguments. There are arguments that can be made about his citations, but his credibility is enhanced by those citations.

I know nothing about this 'test stand incident', it's the first I've ever heard of it. But several things strike me on their face:

1) If TMT was providing tests for a fee, that fee needed to take into consideration wear and tear on any apparatus. If there was a possibility of damage to said apparatus, then one of three things should have been done: a) Estimate the risk, and add it on to the 'test fee' on a per-test basis b) Have any manufacturer either post a bond or sign an indemnification document agreeing to pay for any damage c) Build a more 'robust' test stand in the first place.

2) If a) was done above, TMT has nothing to gripe about.

3) If b) was done above, and the test stand really did cost that much money, then it should be simple to show the signed contract with the manufacturer, the bill sent for the cost of the stand, and (possibly, especially if the bill was not paid in a timely fashion) the receipt for certified mailing of the bill. It would seem that if the money were not paid after that point, that the bill would have been turned over either to a collection agency or referred for further legal action. If TMT did NOT require a bond or indemnification document, guess what? THEY screwed up! If they are trying to run a non-profit corporation in this fashion, and are not being responsible for the assets of the corporation, that is THEIR fault, not Jerry's (or any other manufacturer, for that matter). If they DO have such documents, post them, and prove Jerry a liar.

4) If c) wasn't done above, I really have to ask 'why?' For example, after this 'incident', was any replacement stand made more robust to prevent such occurrences? Have other, similar occurrences (not necessarily test stand destruction, but motor CATOs that are unexpected) occurred over the years? If so, how were they handled? Was no paperwork put in place after this incident? Again, if so, blame TRA for not having it in the first place. If they felt it was a problem of Jerry only, then the requirements wouldn't have needed to be changed. If they didn't change the requirements, then demonstrate where the legal liability lay at the time.

The problem that I have with much of what I'm seeing in TRA is really that I see it is still being run as a 'club' when it is actually a 'corporation'. There's a big difference. The problem is that (IMHO) it often seems that they are trying to get the advantages of being a non-profit corporation while not actually adhering to the responsibilities that are required of such an entity.

David Erbas-White

Not to butt into a good arguement, but I have been looking into EX for a little bit now and I know I will eventually want to build a test stand. Now what I was wondering is what can the test stand that TRA or NAR actually test. Some of the specs that I was thinking for a homebuilt one was, thrust, ejection force, case temp, the angle that the exhaust leaves the nozzle and possbly case expansion.

This should be in the FAQ.

Note the mudslinging changes subjects (repeatedly) but the logic is similar in every case. The exceptional (ly-bad) Jerry hurt/damaged/screwed/violated TRA and we have to punish him for it. We cannot point to what he did but you will take our word for it, won't you? And we will publish something in Tripoi Report to make it "valid" post facto. Ignore the man behind the curtain collecting dues and never delivering magazines as agreed.

Jerry

Yours is FAR more impressive than theirs.

Theirs tests for thrust (force) and they wipe goop on the case to see if it goes above 200 deg C.

That's it. That's all.

Jerry

Mom and Dad can make the rules, And certain things forbid, But I can make them wish that they Had never had a kid.

- Calvin

He's YOUR god, They're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell.

- Locutus

Happy new year! BUY an EMRR calendar. It is safe now, it is past 1-1-04 :)

Right, blame TRA instead of the deadbeat. Nice attitude.

Actually, no, Ray, I'm not. I'm basing this on my recent look at the TRA website when I decided I might like to join. There were several questions raised in my mind at that time, and I posted here about them. I'm pleased to say I received many positive responses, and a few that were (minorly) disconcerting, and when I get the time I'll post here about my conclusions (the last few weeks have been horrific, but I should have some time soon). What the "12-13 year-old argument" showed me, unfortunately, is that there is a longer history of problems with TRA than I had been aware of.

Just this evening, one of the threads against Jerry was that one of the major complaints was of mail fraud for failing to deliver some kind of rocketry magazine. This was the first I had heard of it. The funny things is that, true or false, it is EXACTLY the type of thing that TRA itself has been covering up for several years about, but I don't see similar reaction to it!

Ray, let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are 100% correct, and that Jerry is a deadbeat, in some way, shape or form (or even in many ways, shapes or forms). Nothing in my previous post alleviates the need for TRA to have taken appropriate measures as I outlined. Absolutely nothing. TRAs approach, as a CORPORATION, is to protect and preserve the assets and longevity of the corporation. As such, they should have either had written agreements in place for indemnification, purchased insurance, or included risk in the cost of testing. For example, in the past few weeks I was reading where someone (I think George Gassaway?) paid for one cert ($50) for Aerotech many years ago, because they couldn't afford to pay it. Now, if you consider them an aboveboard, non-deadbeat company, what would have happened if THEIR motor had damaged the TMT test stand?

I'll tell you exactly what would have happened, and my proof is in what is happening today. They would have ignored it, as Jerry did, if they had no legal liability, or if TMT was able to hold them legally liable, they would have filed for bankruptcy, just as they recently did! Why? Because that's how business is conducted in this country, Ray. That's whay I mean by TRA treating it as a 'club', not a 'corporation'. It sounds as though it was a bunch of guys kind of agreeing over a beer, "Hey, will you test this for me?" "Sure, just bring 'em over!" And no thought given as to the ramifications for the corporation, which the officers of the corporation were legally responsible to.

And again, all I've said in my statement (that you cut, in your usual 'convenient' manner) was that if they had some PROOF of this (i.e., that they had a contract, or that they had billed Jerry and he ignored the bill) that they should publish it--and that lacking such PROOF, they SCREWED UP! Ray, even if I accept your statement that Jerry is a deadbeat, the fact that TRA took absolutely no preemptive precautions to PREVENT their being shafted by a deadbeat (any deadbeat), or to follow up on those actions (such as small-claims court, or collection agencies) is EVIDENCE that they screwed up.

BTW, Ray, as a bit of pre-emption, if you choose to argue that TRA prevents Jerry from getting certified because of these (or similar) past problems, you'd better be able to back that up with the aforementioned proof, because if not, Jerry would definitely be able to use it as evidence of restraint of trade, etc.

David Erbas-White

It seems. Is that the best you have?

~ Duane Phillips.

Those minutes should still be accessible to all members regardless of membership age...

~ Duane Phillips.

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