HO scale : Cab Forward

HO scale:
Has anyone had the opportunity to compare the performance of the BLI Cab Forward to the Intermountain Cab Forward ? or heard of any such comparisons?
Many Thanks, Matt

On Nov 14, 9:31 am, mc snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
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If you're speaking of the BLI AC-4/5 and the Intermountain AC-12, we have both in our club and I can give you a rough comparison if you'd be interested.
~Pete

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Hi Pete,
I would very much like to read your thoughts on both of those engines.
The cab forward has been on my wish list for quite some time. I actually think I am close to affording one though I now saw that BLI is bringing out a more expensive, hybrid, brass version sometime in 2010. I suspect that the hybrid will be the same motor(s) and performance features with the added benefits of brass detailing.
Thanks So Much in advance!!! Matt

On Nov 14, 6:04 pm, mc snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
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The Broadway Limited engines are popular with their owners (we have three that I know of in our club). The sound systems sound good, the engines track well, and they pull pretty well too; dragging somewhere around 20 cars up our 2.5% grades. While the detail isn't up to the level of brass, the locos still look pretty nice when you add the weathering that these old flat-faced cab-forwards were known for in their later years. The DCC-equipped engines start moving at a higher voltage than you'd normally expect -around 6 to 8 volts- and they never do get going much above 30 scale MPH when running them on straight DC, but the starting voltage is adjustable and they're capable of higher top-end speeds when running on DCC. (Since real cab-forwards normally worked in heavy drag freight service or helper service, you didn't usually see them moving at speeds much above 30 mph anyway.)
One of our club members owns two of these locos and likes to run them both in the same train in DCC mode: one up front as the road engine, and the other running as a mid-train helper about 25 cars back from the front end. This works fine in DCC mode so long as you've got clean track, but is less successful in DC mode as the slight voltage differences between blocks can cause the road engine to suddenly slow when it enters a new block, while mid-train engine keeps on pushing at it's original speed: occasionally causing the train to imitate an accordian...
We have only one of the Intermountain AC-12s in our club, and while it's owner likes it okay in DCC mode, it's *extremely* slow in straight DC mode even at 12 v. +. Apparently this is *not* owner- adjustable, and he now uses the loco only in DCC mode. It's cosmetics are comperable to the BLI product: good but not outstanding; and just like the BLI locos it needs to be weathered if you want it to look realistic. It doesn't seem to pull quite as well as the BLI cab- forwards, either.
If I had my druthers, I'd like to have one of the BLI loco chassis/ sound systems with an AC-12 body shell. The BLI locos seem to run better, but I enjoy the looks of the later models of cab-forwards more than I do those of the early -and more than a bit boxy- ones.
Broadway once announced that they were going to build an AC-12 version using the same basic AC-4 mechanicals, but I've not heard anything about that project in years now. I suspect they dropped the idea fearing that the Intermountain version would have sucked up all their potential sales.
Hope this helps you out a bit.
~Pete

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Tons!!!!!!!!! Thank You Pete!
I was also leaning toward the BLI [hoping that your findings would support my preference] based solely on my present ownership of several Intermountain F3's. They're nice, but they are not as nice at my Athearn Genesis F7's: detail or performance wise. I feared that the Intermountain Cab Forward *might* fall short of the BLI in similar ways.
The BLI "hybrid" Cab Forward, that is due in 2010, may address the detailing needs that the present offerings cannot meet. That would certainly be great if true, and it might help justify the high price tag.
I can easily imagine the accordian result of a mismatched voltage occurance by spacing the Cab Forward engines as described. My layout will be DCC [NCE, most likely]. Even so, one Cab Forward is all that I can afford [especially if I wait for the BLI "brass hybrid" which is my plan at this time]. Hence, I won't be using a support engine with the Cab Forward. It sounds like a 12 to 14 car consist, including a caboose, will be well within the capabilities of the BLI Cab Forward. That'll work well for my expected yard lengths.
Again, Thank You!

On Nov 15, 6:21 am, mc snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
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You're more than welcome.
~Pete

Twibil, those derailments from one loco pushing thee train over shouldn't be happening. Either you have way overpowered the train OR you are running too fast. Running fast will cause things to happen that proper running at about 20-40mph wouldn't do.
-- Bob May
rmay at nethere.com http: slash /nav.to slash bobmay http: slash /bobmay dot astronomy.net

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Easy to say, more difficult to prevent.
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I did neither. We were speaking of one of my club's members who's had it happen to him, not about me. I don't personally own any BLI AC- class articulateds.
(I *did* once accordion circa 35 cars out of a 106 car S.P. ore train when another one of our club members incautiously reversed the polarity under my train's U-50/DD-35/U-50 lead units, causing them to suddenly reverse course against the thrust of the four SD-45 mid-train helpers that were still back in another block.
The only way I know of to prevent that from happening again is to have more observant club members, and that seems impractical.
~Pete

Can't help you with idiots at work! Low speeds and good length trains do keep accordians from happening tho. At low speeds, a hiccup in one unit will tend to fix themselves before the train is fully compressed and having the train longer than what one end can move also helps as the back end will push till it slows moving or the slack will run out for a while if the back end slows. More time means more time to get things corrected. I'll also note that a loco shouldn't slow when moving from one block to another anyway. That is a fault of the wiring system of the layout more than anything.
-- Bob May
rmay at nethere.com http: slash /nav.to slash bobmay http: slash /bobmay dot astronomy.net

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No, it's just the way the layout *had* to be wired for DC operation. There are completely seperate throttles, voltmeters, and ampmeters for each individual power bus (red, blue, and yellow) on each seperate layout control panel; of which there are ten. (It would be impractical to do it any other way on a layout that's over 14 scale miles in length, has had up to 17 trains operating on it at one time, and frequently sees three trains active on just one control panel.)
Naturally enough, not all of these voltmeters read exactly the same, and if you transfer from one power bus to another as you go between blocks the new one may be serving more trains than the old one was and have less available amperage as a result. So it's easy to think that you've got your control panel set up just right to take your incoming train, only to see the voltage sag down three volts or more as the lead loco enters the new block; with a resulting sudden loss of speed.
Naturally the helpers back in the previous block are still moving at their original speeds, and if they happen to be pushing the train around a curve when this happens -and you don't quickly correct the voltage to the lead locos- the helpers can cause a derail as the train compresses beyond the limits of coupler slack.
I've found that the best solution is to set the throttle in the new block about two to three volts higher than it was reading in the old block, so that the lead loco will speed up a bit, if anything, as it enters the new block.
Trains seem to deal with being slightly stretched far better then they deal with being compressed, and once into the new block it's easy to tweak the throttle setting down a bit should you need to.
~Pete

On 11/16/2009 2:56 PM Twibil spake thus:
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Not surprising when you think about it: when you stretch it, it just puts a strain on everything--couplers and cars--which is fine, so long as you don't actually break a coupler (or have a bunch of cars "stringline" around a curve). But when you smoosh them together (that's the technical term for it), the weight of the cars is the only thing keeping them from flying off the rails.
By the way, good description of large layout wiring details there. Now, I know you hate this, so let me slip this in there nice and fast: the correct term is "ammeter". Just so's you know.
At least you spelled "bus" correctly; hate it that everyone else gets power wiring mixed up with kisses (?!?!?).

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(Shrug) If you knowingly choose to act like an anal-compulsive old- maid English teacher who values exact correctitude over good manners, then so be it.
My mother behaved in exactly the same way towards everyone, all of the time; and often wondered why she had almost no friends -but she was never wise enough to connect the way she treated people with the way people treated her.

On 11/16/2009 10:18 PM Twibil spake thus:
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Hey, look man, take it any way you want to, eh? I went out of my way to make it at least a *little* bit funny, to let you know I was just playing with you a little bit; just letting you know, *once*, what the correct term is. I actually don't give a flying fuck what you call it after that.
Sheesh.

I'd not run MU trains on such a railroad. That is asking fro trouble! Running rear end helpers should mean one throttle for the entire run up the hill. I'll also note that resistance throttlees will not read the right voltage until you get a load on them. For electronic throttles which do directly control the boltag, it isn't hard to "calibrate" the meters for a particular voltage as that is just a matter of adjusting the little adjuster on the front of the meter at some particular voltage. I also assume that you, at the least, do have common rail wiring.
-- Bob May
rmay at nethere.com http: slash /nav.to slash bobmay http: slash /bobmay dot astronomy.net