Passenger Train Engines: E6A and F3A/B

Just a quick check from those of you who can confirm ...

Could I use an E6A [Burlington] and an F3A/B [ATSF Warbonnet] to pull their respective passenger trains? We would like to add some passenger service to the model RR plans, and we just happen to own these diesels already.

Many Thanks! Matt and Kathleen

Yes and no. The earliest ATSF F3 sets retained their high fans, and if you knew where to look, you could see that the red of the warbonnet still carried over where the center porthole USED to be.

Brian

There are no CB&Q E6's. E7 and E8 models are available from P2K.

The CB&Q E5 is the classic locomotive for that road, but unfortunately available only in brass (Overland recent releases and Railway Classics planned for near future). The E5 is quite different in appearance from an E6 and unique to the Burlington.

The ATSF F3s, in most cases, retained appearances that were identifiable as F3s. When they were converted to what is called "Phase IV" They still had features that were unique to the F3. In most cases they retained the dynamic screens and the 16 class maintained the high cooling fan shrouds. The phase IV side louvers were the vertical type which were also used in what is called the F7 phase II. This model F7 had the 48" dynamic fans and the high side cab window which the F3 did not. If all else fails the engine number would indicate what a particular unit was. The best way to be sure what a particular unit looked like would be to have a date documented picture. On the other hand, I don't know if this would guarantee you accuracy either. There is considerable documentation that we take as gospel that is questionable or just inaccurate. J. Bright

"Trainman" wrote

Did that include cutting down the tall fan shrouds on the F3s Don?

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' Righto, Don. He could use the P2K E/7 or E8/9-A units for the Burlington. They only used a B-unit with the E-5 from pictures I've seen, etc.

He could use a bit of modeler's license and run a couple F's (F3's I believe) in silver paint for Burlington, too. I think I read somewhere recently where someone has or soon will be coming out with these. This is somewhat prototypical, but the modeler's license part comes in because these units were only used for a short time in, I believe, 1949 when the California Zephyr was inaugurated. BTW, don't use the P1K gray F3's as this color was used only in freight service.

Take care,

Paul - "The CB&Q Guy"

-- "An important part of this hobby is building things, and the fun of building is nearly always more important than the mere possession of a model" Linn Westcott

--

Thank you, everyone, for the great information.

I mistyped the Burlington info. We do have the silver, Burlington, Proto

I also have a Santa Fe F7A/B Warbonnet and a Santa Fe E6A/B Warbonnet. I'm trying to determine how we could power the upcoming, Walthers, 'Super Chief'. Would I need to buy another F7A? Another F7A/B?

Could an F7 and an E6 be used on the same layout?

Kato questions ...

Are there any rumors that KATO might offer more HO Scale passenger cars to compliment the terrific business cars they have already manufactured?

And, might someone know a source where I could purchase the KATO business car in the silver, Burlington scheme?

Many Thanks!!! Matt

True; the CB&Q did order an A-B-A set of F-3s for California Zephyr service, but they were rarely used in that service.

Brian

The Super Chief rarely ran with E units; ATSF found they did not perform well on mountain grades; they were used mainly in relatively flat areas.

As long as they run at the same relative speed, why not? Many roads mixed Fs and Es.

There's always hope, but since Walthers has weighed in with their very nice cars, Kato would be taking a huge risk doing so.

Brian

Depending on how accurate you want to be you could use F7s and E6s on the same layout. The Proto 2000 E6 appearance is closest to the early 1940s period, but F7s didn't appear until 1949. As far as the Walthers Super Chief--it probably most accurately represents 1953 to 1956 (except for the

Thanks.

Were the ATSF E's relegated to a second tier passenger train on the flats? Were the ATSF E's ever used in freight service?

I don't recall ever seeing ATSF Es on freights. Not to say it didn't happen; I've just never seen evidence.

The Es, after having been found wanting on the mountain grades, were relegated, as I said, to the plains areas where their speed could be used effectively, and their relative lack of tractive effort was not and issue. "Second tier" sounds like a good description of such service, as long as it is confined to the plains or short mountain run consists.

Brian

By the early 50s, which is what the Walthers train will represent, the Super would have been hauled by F7 consists most of the time, probably ABBA and for a good while in matched numbered sets (such as

There are more runs planned for the Genesis F units - not sure if what you have is Genesis or something else. There seems to be another number floating around already - I think it's 43L or 41L - and they are doing an ABBA set #47 which won't be released until late next year, to compliment the Walthers release.

On the same layout? Well -- that's up to you. Someone else responded about Santa Fe preferring to use E units in the flatlands, but it depends on how much compressing you do :-) California transitions from flatlands to mountains abruptly in a number of places, so it is plausible to have both on the same layout.

Dunno... I suppose they could offer some of the cars they have already done in N scale, like the CB&Q cars. But I don't know of any plans.

I think they only made 6 of those, and they are all taken... I've never even SEEN one. This is typical of Kato completely missing the boat on demand for the one correct road name.

Andy

-----------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------

;-) Thanks for the laugh!

It's a shame that they short changed the inventory. Maybe they'll run a second lot. I saw one of the other roadnames in person. It was a gem of a model.

I am hoping that this new Walthers 'Super Chief' passenger set is of equal quality to the Kato business car. Pricewise, it's a steep cost to buy into the entire Walthers set. I'm willing to make the purchase, but I would be disappointed if the cars fell short aesthetically and/or derailments became an ongoing issue.

This is one of the many reasons that I have embraced the Kadee boxcars and the Intermountain cars. Though high priced, they always run perfectly.

-snip-

I'm sure that the new Walthers cars will be on a par with their previous ones. When viewed next to the Kato business car they give up nothing. Price wise they are considerably less than the Kato. I doubt that we will see any other Katos competing in this area unless they bring the price way down. Esthetically these cars are as good or better than what is available in the best of brass at a fraction of the price. It gives me a good feeling when I can purchase a car in the thirty dollar range and do some refinishing on it and it comes out looking better than my friends brass that cost more than ten times as much. As far as derailments, this is a problem with all cars in this length category. In a previous post I gave information that tells how to deal with this problem and pretty well makes it a non issue. J. Bright

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' Matt,

My LHS had a couple left in stock not too long ago. Call Marion at

(FYI, he's located in north central Illinois about 90 plus miles SW of Chicago in Spring Valley.)

Hope this helps!

Paul - "The CB&Q Guy" (Happily modeling 1969 in HO)

I've got pictures of the Super Chief behind ABBA (of course), AABBA, ABBB, AABBBA, and ABBBB sets of F3/F7s. I've never seen it with just an ABA, but the #300 series mentioned below were three unit sets, so why not? And there is always modeler's license. I highly recommend the DVD "Santa Fe Odyssey" by Green Frog, for getting an idea of how the Santa Fe ran their trains.

The E6's were generally not assigned to the Super chief after 1949 when the F7's took over. So the Walthers set is going to be a bit too new for the E6's.

Absolutely. The Santa Fe officially purchased its first F7s in 1949 (#37-48 and #300-#305) and the E6s were not traded in until 1968.

Guilty! I was going to buy the NP one but the paint was so bad I bought the CB&Q instead. So I must have gotten the one you needed. :-)