Re: Burlington [CB&Q], BN, BNSF


1) Are they all fragments from a complex combination of merges through > history?
The Burlington Route (CB&Q) was a railroad formed in the 1800s by the merger
of small railroads in the upper midwest, some which traced their roots back
to 1849. It took its name from Burlington, Iowa on the Missisppi River.
Over time the CB&Q grew into an expansive system stretching from Kentucky to
the Rocky Mountains, and ultimately to the Gulf Coast through a subsidiary
line.
As early as 1901 the CB&Q had seeked to merge with several other large
northern railroads, and that goal was finally accomplished when the
Burlington Northern (BN) was formed by the merger of the Burlington Route,
Great Northern, Northern Pacific and Spokane, Portland and Seattle in March
1970. The railroad was based primarily in the northwest United States,
stretching from Chicago to Seattle. If I recall correctly, the BN was the
largest railroad in the U.S. at the time of the merger but I can't recall if
that was measured in miles of track, value of assets, or tons of freight
hauled.
The Burlington Northern Santa Fe was formed in the latest round of railroad
mergers in 1995 when the Burlington Northern merged with the Atchison, Topeka
and Santa Fe Railway, a similarly large railroad which was based primarily
from Chicago to Los Angeles.
Here's more on some of the predecessors of the BNSF:
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2) Could we include this combination of [paint schemes and roadnames as
> listed above] in one layout and still be somewhat realistic in doing so?
If you modeled the proper transition era (1970+ or 1995+) you could very
plausibly include two of the paint schemes. But not all three together.
There may have been some CB&Q freight cars which keep their paint until 1995
(if so, they'd be very rare and none that I've seen), but none of the
Burlington Route locos keep their paint scheme nearly long enough to see the
formation of the Burlington Northern Santa Fe.
Reply to
Mark Mathu
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Burlington is a shorthand name that can apply to all 3 RR's.
CB&Q was first and mostly ran from Chicago into Iowa & Mn. CB&Q merged with NP, GN and others to form BN about 1980 or so. BN merged (or bought) AT&SF about 1997 to become BNSF.
I am guessing at dates but above is a very short history of the Burlington.
Red, silver, white was one of the "official" diesel paint scemes of the CB&Q, green & black was main scheme of BN and orange, green, yellow main paint scheme of BNSF. Since RR's don't instantly repaint everything at merger time you likely would find red, silver, white with BN lettering, etc. This, of course, dosen't operate backwards so no black & green paint on CB&Q.
This wildly oversimplifies things as there were alternate and/or test paint schemes done at different times by these railroads.
You can find a lot of books on these RR's (there was a whole series of BN motive power books) and a lot likely is on-line and can be found using google or other search engine. Here is a web site on CB&Q:
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Reply to
Charles Seyferlich
FWIW, even prior to the merger, CB&Q, GN and NP shared much of a common ownership, with the GN and NP being the joint owners of the SP&S.
In a way, the merger was more of an extension into the "real world" of something that had existed on paper for years.
Both the GN and the NP had access to Chicago for their "name trains" via the CB&Q, and in fact, even some of the rolling stock used on the "Empire Builder" and "North Coast Limited", while painted for their repective roads, was actually owned by the "Q".
Don
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Reply to
Trainman
To make the issue a little murkier, the original name of the BN was to be the "Great Northern Pacific", derived from the names of the two majority members of the "Hill Lines".
However, marker research indicated that the Burlington Route had much higher name recognition, so it became Burlington (in honor of the CB&Q) Northern (in honor of the Great Northern and Northern Pacific). SP&S was left out of the name. There was also the unfortunate aspect of the proposed railroad's initials: "GNP".
Reminds me of a joke that went around during the UP's acquisition of the SP. In honor of the Union Pacific, the combined company's locos would be partially painted yellow, and the railroad name would include the word "Union". In honor of the Southern Pacific, the locos would also be painted gray, and carry the word "Pacific". 8^)
Brian
On 9/30/03 8:26 PM, in article M2qeb.7519$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com, "Tra>
Reply to
Brian Paul Ehni
Looks like we are dealing with a relative newcomer. I do no do most mid west roads, so I may be wrong about some of these, but lets try to define some terms for the original poster (OP). I am originally a real east coaster (NYC - Boston) who eventually emigrated to the west coast Oregon). I was away from railroading for a long time and probably missed many of the subtleties of various mergers.
CB&Q - Chicago, Burlington and Quincy.
Being a west coast guy now, I have a vague idea where Chicago is. I Think Quincy is Quincy, Illinois. Burlington? Burlington, Il.? Wow what an original operational "short line", where ever the corporate shell went / evolved to.
CB&Q ran to a whole lot more places than you'd think looking at a mapquest map or Micro$oft $treets and Tips maps of Illinois.
BN - Burlington Northern -- somewhere along the line at a date I do not know, the CB&Q merged with the Great Northern. The corporate result, as I understand it ( I may be wrong) was the BN.
I know a little about the late Great Northern, and am enamored of the "Little Joes" and some really great paint schemes I saw when I first arrived in Oregon, seen at Portland's (OR) Union Station in 1972.
BNSF -- merger of BN with Santa Fe [Atcheson, Topeka & Santa Fe (ATSF)] (Atcheson, KS; Topeka, KS, and Santa Fe, New Mexico.)
Atcheson was a Missouri River crossing north of St. Louis. I suspect but do not know that the CB&Q ran from Chicago to the east bank of the Missouri at Atcheson.
The ATSF had a route into S Cal arriving at LA.
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Reply to
Jim McLaughlin
The merger was in 1970: GN, NP, CB&Q, SP&S and.. wasn't there a Colorado road in there at some point?
Anyone got a picture of the original paint scheme for BN? And I'm not talking about the classic Green and Black scheme...
You're thinking of the Milwaukee Road. The GN didn't have any Little Joes. Ironically, the Milw did have the best route to the west ;)
Reply to
Diezmon
In a word, AMAZING!
Thanks everyone for sharing your information and your understanding of these mergers. It helps a lot in planning future modeling and purchase decisons.
Most Sincerely, Matt and Kathleen
Jim McLaughl
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Excellent resource. Thank you! I certainly find another book to add to our purchase list.
Reply to
Matt & Kathleen Brennan
The Denver & Fort Worth was part of the CB&Q.
But everyone has missed the other road involed in the merger. The PC
No, not the Penn Central late commer, but the Pacific Coast. Ran out of Seattle to the local coal mines in the Cascades.
Howard
Reply to
Howard R Garner
The Colorado & Southern and Forth Worth & Denver were subsidiary lines controlled by the Burlington Route (CB&Q).
Although the Burlington Northern took ownership of the railroads during the March 1970 merger, the two lines continued to exist as separate entities until the early 1980s. The equipment of these subsidiary lines wore the same paint scheme as their parent railroads, except for small "C.&S." or "F.W.&D." lettering on the side of the loco body or reporting marks.
Reply to
Mark Mathu
CB&Q is a component of the later BN which is a component of the later BNSF.
I'm not sure what all railroads comprise the CB&Q, but BN is primarily the CB&Q and Great Northern (possibly one or two others). BNSF is a fairly recent merger between the Burlington Northern and the Atcheson Topeka & Santa Fe (or as most call it, the Santa Fe, for short). The Santa Fe is made up of many older smaller railroads too (here again, I'm not sure exactly which ones, as the AT&SF has been around for a long time.
I doubt very seriously that you'll still see any CB&Q equipment around in the days of the BNSF (which is NOW, and working for one of the major railroads, I see a lot of locos and rolling stock...and I have never seen anything painted CB&Q), but having equipment of either of the other two combinations is very likely. You could either model early BN and have some left over CB&Q running around, or you could model the BNSF era, which is now, and there definately are plenty of BN painted locomotives and rolling stock still on the railroad.
Reply to
Slingblade
He may have been thinking of Colorado & Southern, a wholly-owned subsidiary of CB&Q. It kept a separate corporate identity for some time after the BN merger, as evidenced by SD40-2s with C&S sublettering, although painted for BN.
Brian
Reply to
Brian Paul Ehni
"Colorado & Southern" was a wholly owned susidiary od the CB&Q (Along with the Fort Worth & Denver).
GN had somesimilar units (W-1?), but the TRUE "Little Joes" were the ones on the Milwaukee Road and the CSS&SB. They got their name bacause they were built for 5' gauge to be exported to Russia while Josef Stalin was still leader, and became available for sale when the US Government put the Kabosh on the deal.
Perhaps the most scenic, but as the last Railroad built west (after the GN & NP were completed), once you got west of the Twin Cities there were virtually NO major towns along the way until you got to Washington.
Don
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Reply to
Trainman
You all did very well on this (for the most part) and I'm very proud of you.
Now, someone was asking about the original BN paint scheme or some such. I think what he may be thinking of was an experimental paint job aka the white hockey stick paint scheme, which was applied to SD-45's and U-25-C prior to delivery to the CB&Q in the late sixties. Here is a pic of one of the SD-45's in this paint:
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Notice there is no herald under the cab window, that's because they were leaving room to add the BN logo once the powers that be actually OK'd the merger. Also, notice the word BURLINGTON down low beneath the cab window with green space beneath it. This was done on purpose in anticipation of the word NORTHERN being added below once the merger was approved and implimented. The Burlington filed to create the BN merger in, I believe 1968, and thought it was pretty much a done deal. That's why they ordered these units in the green paint. I believe the 45's were delivered in February of 1969. However, approval took longer than expected and so the actual merger creating BN didn't happen until March of 1970. If they were so sure of the merger happening than why didn't they just order units with the BN logo applied at the factory. Well they actually DID do that on only one unit of which I'm aware, a GP-40. I have a picture of it in one of my books - its a one of a kind!
They also had passenger cars in the hockey stick paint prior to Amtrak taking over passenger ops in much of the U.S. in May of 1971. IHC I believe makes HO models of these cars.
There were also some freight cars painted in green prior to the merger and also some waycars (Burlington for caboose). Roundhouse had a green boxcar for Burlington out a few years back, and Red Caboose is supposedely going to release a green covered coil car in the near future.
Someone else mentioned the Colorado & Southern and the Fort Worth & Denver. The Burlington was thought of as a granger railroad, but the idea occured to me awhile back that if one loved the paint scheme of the Burlington AND the out west mountanous scenery, they could be combined realistically by modeling say, the C&S. BTW, they owned SD-40's painted in the Chinese Red and Gray paint, but the CB&Q didn't have a one. Modeling out west would also give you the opportunity to model sugar beet operations, and use some of those Walthers gons labled "For Sugar Beet Loading Only" which came out in a six pack a year or two back.
Hope this is of help in your modeling!
Paul - "The CB&Q Guy"
Reply to
Paul K - The CB&Q Guy
As for current day BNSF, you might enjoy looking at
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Reply to
Rhoobarb
Many good posts here but one thought and several railroads have been overlooked. The BNSF Heritage I scheme, orange and green before they added all the yellow, was very close to the original streamlined 1955 "Empire Builder" colors. I hear the rumor that the current president "always liked that scheme". Personally I preferred the NP Lowey Green scheme.
Several railroads have also been overlooked. Here is a diagram (I hope it translates in group mail). I am certain there are other predecessor lines I've forgotten. I have seen an actual poster of this somewhere but can't recall where. The interesting things are the division of the Atlantic and Pacific by the Santa Fe and the Frisco. The merger of the Santa Fe & Frisco which was later disallowed.
Chicago Burlington & Quincy-------------------\ Colorado Southern -(CB&Q owned)----------\ Fort Worth & Denver-(C&S owned)-------\ \ Northern Pacific Railroad (1864)------------------\ Spokane Portland & Seattle (NP,GN owned)-----\ Oregon Electric(GN owned)----\ Saint Paul & Pacific (1878)--------\ \ BNML\ \-Great Northern--\ \ Saint Paul Minneapolis & Manitoba / \Burlington Northern (1970) / | Frisco-----------------------\ -Frisco-------/(1980) | / \ / | Atlantic & Pacific---/\ \ / | \ \ / | St Joseph & Topeka (1857)-\ \ \ / | Atchison & Topeka (1859)---\ \ \ / | Atchison Topeka & Santa Fe (1868)---------------BNSF(1994)
The Northern Pacfic actually owned controlling interest in the Saint Paul & Pacific at one time also.
There had to be more "starter" railroads I've forgotten especially in the CB&Q line. Seems like there was one more in the NE also xxxx & Astor?
Reply to
SleuthRaptorman
Yes. While a many here have given you some good information, I'll fill in a few cracks you might have, as I also model the CB&Q/BN (but not BNSF).
CB&Q was merged into Burlington Northern with Great Northern and Northwest Pacific in 1970. The best sources for information for this would be:
Fallen Flags
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's photos
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's photos
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Northern Photo archives
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historical society
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mailing lists
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...and last, my website Castle Graphics
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Burlington Northern and Santa Fe merged in 1995 to become BNSF. Best sources for information for this would be:
BNSF
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pics
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photo archives
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pictures
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and probably a few more, but like I said, I don't model it.
No. Unfortunately, twenty-five years have passed since CB&Q ceased to exist when the 1995 merger came about. You could have CB&Q with BN, and BN with BNSF, but not CB&Q all the way to BNSF.
The last CB&Q locomotives (both the Chinese red and the "Blackbird" scheme) were repainted in 1976. At that point in time they were lettered with a small "BN" under the cab anyway, but right after the merger it was not uncommon to see "Burlington" locomotives with the CB&Q paintschemes and no "BN" lettering on the cab. That is the era I model, about 1973-1975 or so. You can still see an occasional BN locomotive that doesn't have BNSF painted on it, so that would be kosher as well.
Last, but not least...it IS your railroad...if a long-lost CB&Q Chinese-red SD9 was packed in behind a BNSF SD70MAC, whos' going to argue? :)
Cheers!
Jan
Reply to
Jan Kohl
were repainted in 1976. At that point in time they
merger it was not uncommon to see "Burlington"
is the era I model, about 1973-1975 or so.
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''' Hi Jan,
I am modeling the CB&Q about 6 months BEFORE the merger, but I have toyed with possibly someday modeling a bit AFTER the merger, as you have chosen to do. I figured this way I could run engines from ALL the merger partners together plus BN. How is this working out for you?
Also, if I were to do this someday, I would probably make the time period the latter part of 1971 so I could run Amtrak and some of those funky passenger consists with cars kicked in from all the participating railroads.
Take care,
Paul - "The CB&Q Guy" ~Modeling 1969 In HO~
Reply to
Paul K - The CB&Q Guy
I've always preferred the Big Sky Blue scheme, though it was in use *way* after the years that I like to model. I never much cared for the orange and green scheme, either back then or now.
Reply to
Rick Jones
Quincy is indeed in Illinois, but Burlington is in Iowa (you know, one of those states you flew over when you moved.... :-) Also one of the states which produce most of your food.)
That's because most of its track wasn't in Illinois. At one time, it was one of the largest railroads in the country.
It merged with the Great Northern, the Northern Pacific, and the Spokane, Portland, and Seattle.
Atchison (note the spelling, please) is in Kansas, near, but not on the Missouri River, and across the state of Missouri from Saint Louis (which is located where the Mississippi and Missouri rivers meet, on the *east* side of the state). It's north of Kansas City, and south of St. Joseph, MO.
The Santa Fe ultimately ran from Chicago (and that's on the lower end of Lake Michigan, for you geographically-challenged types :-)) through to Los Angeles.
Reply to
Gary M. Collins
or depending on how you look at it through to San Francisco.
Reply to
SleuthRaptorman

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