Can anyone give me a consist list for the CONGRESSIONAL please. I've checked several references but cannot get an accurate number of coaches, or the types of coaches, diners, bags, lounges etc. It was a spiffy looking train, especially with the T.R. GG1 pulling it. I'm thinking of doing one in HO. Well, maybe not THAT long. Tnx.
The Congressional ran from the late 1800's, and so had many incarnations. GG1's would have pulled a heavyweight Congressional in the 1930's and in WWII, with P-70's, parlor cars, and a diner, and this would have been a spiffy train. But I suspect you are thinking of the Budd stainless cars of
1952 with the tuscan letterboards. The Pennsy ordered a total of 64 cars from Budd in early 1951 which were delivered in early 1952. Two 14 cars train sets for the Boston - Washington "Senator" and two 18 car sets for the New York - Washington "Congressional" were assembled from these cars. The 64 included: 32 - P85H 60 seat coaches #1568-1599 (for both trains) 16 - PP85 29 seat, 1 drawing room parlor cars #7130-7145 (all named) (for both trains) 2 - PP85A drawing room, parlor (7 conference room) cars #7146-7147 (named Matthias W. Baldwin & Thomas A. Edison) (for Congressionals) 4 - D85ED coffee shop, lounge cars #1153-1156 (for both trains) 2 - D85? dining cars #4525-4526 (for Senators) 2 - D85C full length dining cars #4624 & 4626 (for Congressionals) 2 - DL85D kitchen, bar, lounge cars #4625 & 4627 (for Congressionals) 2 - POC85C 14 seat parlor, observation, buffet, lounge cars #7126-7127 (named Benjamin Franklin & Martha Washington) (for Senators) 2 - POC85B 18 seat, observation, buffet, lounge cars #7128-7128 (named George Washington & Alexander Hamilton) (for Congressionals) I do not have a specific count of the P85H coaches and PP85 parlor cars in each set, but they must have been in about a 2 to 1 ratio as necessary to fill the train sets to 18 and 14 cars. As I understand it, these sets ran in tact from 1952 to 1956 on the Morning and Afternoon Congressionals (although the PRR timetables of the period imply the twin unit diners were only used on the afternoon train). In 1956, a Mid-Day Congressional was added and the trains sets were broken up and supplemented with additional cars. About this time, the Congressionals would have used the special silver painted GG1's. Hope this helps, and that someone out there can amplify this data. Gary QWOW! You astound me with your knowledge on this subject. I guess you answered his question. :-)
John
Thanks for the compliment, but it's less knowledge than still being able to remember where to look in my motly collection of RR books and sundries. I do like the PRR, but had not paid a lot of attention the Congressional - my HO passenger roster is mostly tuscan cars for east-west trains that would have operated to Chicago. I do have an old Lionel 1955 Congressional set, and the poster's question got me interested in how "accurate" Lionel was. The research showed Lionel had 3 names right - Obs named Alex Hamilton, and real parlors named Molly Pitcher and Betsy Ross, but Lionel's 4th car - Wm.Penn - was not a '52 Congressional name. Of course Lionel's putting the parlor names on a "Pullman" and a Vista Dome was not close to the real Congo, but as the OP said, it is a spiffy train. Gary Q
Ok perhaps you can answer my question then about the "Fleet of Modernism" cars the Pennsy had. I have one of the Walthers cars that is painted as such..............What can you tell me about those cars (Fleet of Modernism) not Wathers.....Would they ever get mixed in with heavy weight sleepers?
John
When the GG1s pulled trains from other lines, what types of cars from the other lines would be in the consist? a whole B&O train? sleepers? chair cars?
Would lines be mixed? A Sou and a B&O sleeper w/ pennsy diner or club car?
Baggage cars?
When would you see pullman green?
Jim Stewart
This might be of interest, John:
Well Geezer, like it or not you have been dubbed the Pennsy passenger expert....
Thanks Bill, do you model any specific road, or are you 'doin your thing'?
Thank you ever so much. This is just what I wanted. I am mostly interested in the l.w. with tuscan band cars, and the red GG1. I hadn't even thought or seen the silver painted G. Since I have two red ones they'll be just fine. I was in D.C. from time to time is the '50s, so I would have seen the one described. Over the next year or so, I'll try to assemble about a dozen to fifteen cars.
The Fleet of Modernism scheme (light tuscan sides with round ended dark tuscan band with through the windows between the vestibules) was created in
1938 by Raymond Lowey for the PRR. As I understand it, it was only applied to new lightweight equipment and to some rebuilt older heavyweight cars, such as the arch roof P-70 rebuilds of that time. I don't recall seeing a picture of this scheme on a heavyweight clearstory roofed car, although Pullman Mechanical Inspector Peter Falles did have a Fleet of Modernism lettering dimension diagram drawn on a heavyweight car outline in his set of diagrams.I have seen pictures from the later 1940's of FofM scheme cars coupled to heavyweight cars in the all tuscan scheme. The first line PRR trains (Broadway, etc.) would generally be all lightweight cars in the FofM scheme before WWII, with an occasional appearance of a heavyweight "protection" car when a new car was in the shop. In the late 1940's, new cars were being added to the roster which would bump some of late 30's lightweights to lower status trains, where they would more likely be mixed with all tuscan heavyweights. Note that in 1946, PRR modified the FofM scheme from the Futura san-serif lettering to a Modified Block Roman font, and then stopped using the Fof M scheme in 1947, although it remained on many cars in photos taken in the late 40's. Hope this supplements the info at the PRR site Bill provided. Gary Q
John=A0Franklin replied: Thanks Bill, do you model any specific road, or are you 'doin your thing'?
----------------------------------------------------- When it comes to passenger trains, I like 'em all! . . .
To my knowledge, almost never a B&O train - the B&O had it's own lines from DC to Baltimore to Philadelphia (the Royal Blue Route), and thence via Reading and Jersey Central to NYCity. I suppose there might have been re-routes when the B&O line was closed by a wreck, but that would have been rare.
Sleepers and head end cars would have been forwarded from other lines to the Northeast via the PRR electrification regularly. It would not have been typical for single coaches to be passed on, and separate diners would rarely leave home rails. The exceptions would be when entire trains, like the major Florida services and other trains such as the Crescent, went north of DC on the PRR. The GG1 on the PRR could handle an 18 car train, so a long train of foreign (to the PRR) cars might be the entire consist behind a GG1. Because of the traffic density, PRR would combine shorter through routed trains, either two foreign consists or a foreign consist tacked onto a PRR train. The Orange Blossom Special book describes an annual fall meeting of PRR executives with those of the RF&P, SAL, ACL, etc. to plan the handling of the winter Florida and other vacation destination trains each year. The other roads would seek individual handling of their trains for the status it would afford the train, while the Pennsy would try to combine trains to reduce the number of separate movements it had to accommodate on the very busy Corridor. The combinations would vary year to year as the traffic on the Florida trains, and their schedules, changed.
SOU yes, B&O probably no. But again, it was usually either through multi-RR trains like the Crescent or Orange Blossom Special, or through routed individual sleepers. Borrow a copy of the book "Night Trains" which describes the Pullman operations, and lists the location of almost every through sleeper on a typical night in 1952.
Yes, but more often mail cars and express company cars.
I assume you mean on the PRR Corridor. Regularly up to WWII, and much less so after the RRs acquired the Pullman operating assets in 1947. By the late
40's, most through services (i.e. inter-RR), which tended involve the premier trains, were being handled by newer lightweight equipment, and the older heavyweight cars the RRs acquired from Pullman were used on lesser services and thus tended to stay on home rails.
snip
One example (not B&O) is the sleeper Silver Rapids that was part of the California Zephyr set of stainless steel Budd cars and was contributed to the Zephyr by the PRR for run through from the East to California.
I had a blot over the page. N&W Ran the Cavalier from NY to Cape Charles and #1 from New York to Bluefield and Roanoke, Not B&O....
Summary: Please correct if I am wrong:
Period 1942-1947 Location: Mainline Trenton to NYC
1A New Haven same, separate trains with a few cars going to Washington.
Other western roads in 1945 on pennsy?
I am learning a lot fast. Thanks, I am an old man and my wife is wondering when the trains are going to run. Looks like about 1/4 of my fleet should be foreign roads. Sleepers, express and RPO
1/4 pennsy lightweights, and 1/2 heavyweights, including commuters.I already have 5 GG1s, 2 Consolidations, 2 K4's and 2 Mikes (Bowser) Also have a gas/electric for princeton/pjunction. Have kitchen and troop cars.
Jim
PS. Bill, that list you posted had some very good info.
Jim replied:
*** PS. Bill, that list you posted had some very good info.----------------------------------------------------- Pleased that I could add something to this. I'm learning a lot from you and Geezer here.
Bill Bill's Railroad Empire N Scale Model Railroad:
No. The N&W did not reach Cape Charles on the north side of Chesapeake Bay - it was the PRR that had the line down the DelMarVa peninsula to Cape Charles. And the Cavalier operated between Norfolk and Cincinnati with no cars to NY.
No. N&W trains 1 & 2 operated up the Shenandoah Valley line between Hagerstown and Roanoke (and at one time Bristol). They did connect with the PRR to forward though cars to New York.
The number may be right, but the LV did not operate through passenger trains over the PRR Corridor. The LV used a Jersey City terminal and its lines went NW to Buffalo, where it connected with the NYC to send trough Pullmans to Chicago.
NYNH&H had lots of trains to New York, with terminating trains generally using the NYC's Grand Central Station, and the few through trains (like the Senator way back in the original response in this thread) using the Hell Gate Bridge route to Penn Station.
No. The Black Diamond was an LV train. The Erie had its own Jersey City terminal and did not operate its trains over the PRR Corridor.
In the 1940's period you mention, the Clockers would have used standard PRR P-70 type coaches, which were a main line type design and heavier than typical commuter coaches. However, P-70's were used in commuter service.
efficiently.
OK, but the RF&P (ACL & SAL did not have tracks north of Richmond) and the SOU connected with the PRR at DC and not Harrisburg.
Yes. PRR had trains with from several head end cars all the way to all head end cars with perhaps just a single rider coach for dedheading employees.
I assume you mean other than PRR. Yes.
Yes. But remember that Pullman heavyweights were not just painted Pullman Green. All those intended for regular service on PRR trains were painted tuscan.
Remember that the CZ did not begin service until 1949, well after your period of interest. The through service on the CB&Q and D&RGW before the CZ was the Exposition Flyer. Note too that the C&NW was the Omaha to Chicao link for the UP during the 1940's and it primarily was the UP Overland Route train names that were associated with the through Pullmans to the east.
Yes. Recall the thread several weeks ago about the ATSF Chief / Super Chief and the through coast to coast cars. There were also through cars from the SP / CRI&P Golden State Route
Sounds good. My only suggestion would be in the foreign road cars, to concentrate on modeling just 1 SOU or ACL or SCL through train rather than getting a potpourri of cars from those lines, and then add some generic Pullman lettered cars and a couple of cars from the western transcontinental services.
For your loco roster, remember that the PRR bought its first EMD Diesel in
1937, and had several EMD and some Baldwin Diesel switchers by the mid 40's.Wish someone would bring out a plastic P5a electric to supplement our GG1 fleets. I've got one of those Tyco GG1-ish bodies under the work bench for a some day project to bash into a sort-off streamlined P5a, but so far it has seemed to be too much effort and keeps geting put off. Gary Q
Wow, Geezer. Your knowledge of the PRR (and other roads) is amazing! Thanks for sharing.
Bill Bill's Railroad Empire N Scale Model Railroad:
Not so much knowledge as remembering where I have read things in references. And that leads to mistakes as the ole memory fails or I don't read far enough: The LV trains were moved into the Manhattan Penn Station by the USRA during WWI and continued to use that as their NY passenger terminal. I've seen pictures of the power change point, but don't recall its location other than northern NJ. So LV trains would have been on the PRR Corridor during Jim Stewart's period of interest, but for only a small portion of the NY to Trenton route that he's interested in. Sorry for the error. Gary Q.
Geezer replied: Not so much knowledge as remembering where I have read things in references. And that leads to mistakes as the ole memory fails or I don't read far enough
--------------------------------------------------- Until a couple years ago, my memory was still good. Now it isn't. Can't remember as well, can't see as well, can't hear as well. Oh, well.
Bill Bill's Railroad Empire N Scale Model Railroad:
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