Recommend a Coal Tender?

Hi folks,
I'm getting the materials together I need to make a HO Polish armoured train from the 30s. I've found a locomotice from Model Power that is
almost exactly the right size (here it is at Omni models in Illinois: http://www2.omnimodels.com/cgi-bin/woi0001p?&I=MDPU6720&P=7 However, I need a different tender to form the basis of the subject tender (it will be built over with plastic card). The one with the Model Power 2-6-0 is too long and has a different wheel configuration from what I need. Here is a diagram of the 6 wheeled tender before the Poles added armour to it:
http://republika.pl/derela/ti3draft.gif (this is from this page: http://republika.pl/derela/ti3.htm ).
The diagram suggests I need something 6.250 meters long (including couplings), or in HO scale, ~7.18 cm or ~2.8 inches long or in that vicinity.
Can anyone suggest where I might look for something of this length, with three evenly spaced sets of wheels? It doesn't necessarily have to be an actual coal tender as I will be building over it.
Also, I had figured I'd order from Omnimodels - they seem to have excellent feedback on ebay (which is where I first found mention of them on a search for locos of the size I need) but I emailed them last week on this subject and haven't gotten a response. They web site is laid out excellently - are they a good mail order source? I'm in Canada.
Thanks very much in advance.
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Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal /
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Tim Marshall wrote:

For 6-wheel tenders, your best bet is a British type. Ask on uk.rec.models.rail.
Or even an actual Polish model - I think PIKO makes Polish steam engine models. Liliput (Bachmann), and Roco also make engines of a suitable size, including 6-wheel tenders. Anyhow, the last 6-wheel tenders for N. American railroads were built sometime in the middle 1800s, and AFAIK there are no models of them. AFAIK, there were no 6-wheel cars built for N. American railroads, but there may have been some before 1850 when the Canadian and US RRs were still buying a lot of equipment from Europe.
BTW, if you want to actually run the armoured train, I would not recommend this particular engine by Model Power. IHC (International Hobby Corporation) makes a 2-6-0 type that runs much better, and costs about the same.
You may also find some help on a military modelling newsgroup. IIRC, there is one on Yahoo.
You say you're in Canada. Whereabouts? If you are within an hour's drive of Toronto, go to George's Trains on Mount Pleasant road, and discuss your needs with them. Or Johns' Photo on the Danforth about two blocks east of Woodbine - they have a lot of European trains.
Good luck.
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Tim Marshall wrote:

I've checked out the website, and note that Ti3 is actually a variation of Prussian G5. Models of that loco are made by Liliput (Bachmann) and Roco, among others. Complete with correct tender...
HTH
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Wolf wrote:

Ah! Thanks so much. I'll search for that. Intersting, when I visiting Spain last year, I picked up a couple of freight cars (in what I call a "European configuration", with single sets of wheels as opposed to pairs of bogies or whatever the correct term is) by Liliput - wasn't sure what the company was!

It did greatly, thank you.
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Wolf wrote:

I think you're refering to the Prussian/Oldenhburg T13 - a model was and is made by Trix. The G5/G5.1/G5.2/G5.3 hasn't been produced by any mainstream manufacturer to date, but was available from Model Loco/DJH. (differences in wheelbase, valvegear boiler etc etc) The boiler was the same as the P6 (K's, Model Loco) and probably the same as the T13. The P6 was equivalent to the G5.3 in everything except driving wheel diameter and 4 axle tender.
The tender was a standard Prussian 3T12 (3 axles Tender 12 m3 water) The Fleischmann G4.3 tender is precisely right - the cheap set version comes unlettered. The Fleischmann G4.3 could have a front frame extension, added front truck and a lengthened boiler to make a representation of the required ex-Prussian G5.3.
Liliput and Roco don't make the model or anything suitable. Roco makes the G10 (0-10-0) with 3T16.5 tender and the P4.2 (4-4-0) with 4T15 tender. Regards, Greg.P.
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Tim Marshall wrote:

Tim:
You could perhaps find a European 6-wheeled freight car kit or use one truck from a six-axle dummy diesel. Most of these have a wheelbase of about 13 1/2 feet, where you need 10 feet 10 inches. I suggest finding a junker Tyco pancake-motor E9 or C630, and using the rear non-powered truck. You can wire it quite easily for power pickup, since that's what it does on the original engine.
http://tycotrain.tripod.com/tycotrains/id9.html
I used to own the Model Power 2-6-0. It's crude but it does run, and may be enough for your purposes. I think before I used it for a kitbash like this I'd try modifying the old Tyco/Mantua 0-6-0.
http://tycotrain.tripod.com/steamengines/id1.html
(You could use any 0-6-0 available. The IHC 2-6-0's drivers are too large, and the MDC 2-6-0 doesn't have evenly spaced wheels. The European engines mentioned are megabucks; you can get a Mantua 0-6-0 from a show or Ebay for $20 or so, at least you should be able to.)
Cordially yours: Gerard P.
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snipped-for-privacy@gannon.edu wrote:

Folks:
Not quite accurate ,on further review, but still...more than $100. I'd start with the Mantua model.
Cordially yours: Gerard P.
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snipped-for-privacy@gannon.edu wrote:

Good lord, you're right. My first searches for Liliput and Roco show HO locos as much as $400!!!! HAven't found the G5 yet, though.
Why are they so expensive?
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Tim Marshall wrote:

Better quality than Model Power and Tyco. Run smoother than silk... have better detail, etc, and are _in fact_ "designed from actual railroad blueprints". The mold work on those boilers must cost a mint. :-)
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snipped-for-privacy@gannon.edu wrote:
I suggest

Gerard, I'm not sure what you mean by this. I'm pretty much a major newbie, I'm afraid, wrt model trains as I've been doing non-ppowered plastic models for the past 30 years... My old tyco steam locomotive has a tender with copper wheels... If I were to get the Model Power locomotive, does the power run through the tender? I didn't realize that... I'd like to have the model actually run (I'd rig some wire under my wargames table to connect whereever I laid the track so the thing could at least beedle back and forth from one end to the other...)
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Tim Marshall wrote:

Tim:
The Model Power engine should be okay, then. I used to own one. The power does not run through the tender. The Model Power engine has their famous Giant Cheap Motor in the cab, driving one wheel through a worm and very small gear. Power is picked up from the driving wheels' metal tires on both sides, and travels through the shiny metal piece visible behind them in the photo you linked, which is in one piece with the horizontal 'valve rod' member, visible above the front wheel. Whew, long.
The Tyco six-axle diesels had two drives, one good and almost never found. The "pancake" motor referred to is the other, of reasonably smooth running quality and execrable life and repairability, and common as dirt on Ebay and at shows.
The "pancake" drive, which Tyco called the "Power Torque Drive", consisted of two trucks (the swiveling wheeled components): one with a motor, in the front, and one free-rolling truck, in the back. These trucks, and a weighted 'fuel tank', snapped into a hollow plastic body shell that served in lieu of a frame. This was similar to Mantua's earlier drive, but the components were completely different, and much worse.
Are you familiar with the old Aurora Thunderjet/early AFX slot car chassis? Picture this, turned sideways. The motor-truck was tall, with a circular recess that held 2 magnets, a very thin armature, and the PC-board commutator that Greg P mentioned. This drove all three axles through a tiny brass gear and several larger but very thin plastic gears, all exposed for the world to see. Wheels on one side were brass, and picked up power. On the other side, they were plastic, with gears molded into their backs like an old Lionel.
The rear truck was simply a wheeled cart with much less to it. Again, one side had brass wheels to pick up power (the opposite rail from the front truck); the other side plastic. One wire connected the two trucks. This idler truck is what I suggested using - Greg P seems to have used the powered truck, to boost the engine's pull, which is a neat plan.
This drive was available in 4-axle and 6-axle variants. The only difference between them is that the center wheels (necessary for the drive) were smaller in size on the 4-axle design, and supposedly less visible. While in the real world, the trucks had different wheel bases, Tyco just stretched the 4-wheel truck and compressed the 6-wheel so they could fit their shoe on everybody's feet. Ugh ugh ugh. Of course, the 'happy accident' is that it just fits that Prussian tender. :) :)
If you get the Tyco C630 or E9 you are almost guaranteed to get the "right" parts, but don't overpay. I'd have a hard time spending $5 on such dreck. Look through the Ebay junker lots.
Your old Tyco steam loco is one of the earlier pre-CF era, or else one of those designs they just kept making (albeit a bit cheaped out, sometimes). In the era of this infamous Power Torque drive, it was also installed in a horrible, mutant 2-8-0 steam locomotive, but you would never mistake that tender for anything else, since it has this pancake motor mounted in it, with weird, fake, swiveling trucks (the dummy loco itself looks kind of nice). These units are worth about $1, so they usually go for about $10 at train shows and $20 on Ebay. :(
Cordially yours: Gerard P.
Cordially yours: Gerard P.
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snipped-for-privacy@gannon.edu wrote:

In my spares box is a Roewa/Raimo pr 3T12 tender mounted on a Tyco 3 axle motor bogie. I used the Tyco 2 axle tram (streetcar) wheelsets to get metal wheels on both sides. With lead sheet filling the remainder of the shell it has a reasonable tractive effort. The wheelbase of the Tyco bogie is within a millimeter of the tender sideframes. The brass Tyco wheels really need plating for consistant current collection (I used the loco wheels) and the commutator of the Tyco motor is PC board and will oxidize if left unused for more than a couple of weeks. It soon clears once it runs for a minute or two. The death of the Tyco mechanisims comes when the little metal armature gear wears out as there are no replacements any longer. I repaired many Tyco locos in the 80s/90s and it was this gear that caused the demise of most of them. (well, that and people soldering to the brush holder plate and melting it)
Regards, Greg.P.
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Greg Procter wrote: [...]

I've used gun bluing on brass wheels, which does improve current collection. The brownush-black patina is conductive. YMMV.
CConducta-Lube by Aerocar is the best commutator lubricator-cleaner bar none. It forms a long-lasting protective film, too.
[...]
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Tim Marshall wrote:

As Wolf suggested, a model of a British loco tender is probably your best bet. Hornby, Bachmann Branchline or Dapol are the manufacturers to look for.
Cheers,
Mark.
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Mark Newton wrote:

There's _nothing_ British that even vaguely matches. Fleischmann makes precisely the correct tender, both in standard and cheap starter set levels. Their spares department will sell them without an problems.
Regards, Greg.P.
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Greg Procter wrote:
> There's _nothing_ British that even vaguely matches.
Tim's original query was that he was looking for a suitable 6-wheel underframe to build a new armoured tender on.
"Can anyone *suggest* where I might look for something of this length, with three evenly spaced sets of wheels? It doesn't necessarily have to be an actual coal tender as I will be building over it."
That being the case, and given that the armoured tender has skirts that conceal the frames, axleboxes, etc:
http://republika.pl/derela/ti3scale.gif
there are a number of options open to him. One of them is to use a tender underframe from a British loco - there are a number that are quite close dimensionally. Which is why I made my *suggestion*.
(For that matter, he could cobble up his own out of bits and bobs, were he so inclined.)
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Mark Newton wrote:

Fair enough!

Obviouslly you've measured something I haven't because I can't find any British OO loco tender underframe that comes anywhere near any Prussian 6 wheel tender underframe in dimensions.
Which is why I made my *suggestion*.

Of course, but I'm left wondering what British model might be a suitable donor!
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Greg Procter wrote:

Er, Greg, you're right about the correct tender, etc. But OP just wanted a non-operating thingy with the correct wheel base so he could cover it all up plasticard, and paint it field grey or whatever colour the Polish armed forces used in 1930. So exact protoypical accuracy wasn't as important as it is to you or me. Any 6=wheel tender close to the correct wheelbase in actual inches would do.
Still, ta for the info on Fleischmann. I hope I recall it next time someone wants to know. :-)
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Tim Marshall wrote:

Correct. It can be made to roll along the tracks with not too much work.

It's a considerably bigger loco than the one you have posted a drawing of, but it's a loco. =8^) It would be no more out of place than say substituting a Tiger tank for a Sherman tank, but most of the proprietry options are expensive. One loco that you might pick up cheaply would be a Liliput BR 38 (ex prussia P8) These models were made from around 1957 - 75 and the prototypes got spread throughout Europe during and after WWI. Some come with a box tender and some with a WWII tub tender.

Yes.
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Thanks for the reply, Greg. Some other questions/comments interspersed below:
Greg Procter wrote:

Rats. But studying the G5 diagram and the Dapol site, the spacing of the large wheels of the Dapol 2-6-0 do seem to be further apart. Same for the wheels on the tender.

8) You obviously know exactly how to communicate to someone of my ilk (WWII tank modeller)!

I found one, but it's a 4-6-0: http://tinyurl.com/2xxc3v
I notice that Dapol has spoked wheels as spares. What I might just do, since the diagram I have is so detailed with respect to measurements is buy the Dapol Mogul, take the large wheels from it (I somehow suspect it's difficult to find such wheels to buy separately) and the spare wheels. The latter I'll use for the front wheels of the loco and the wheels of the tender. I don't mind building stuff right from plastic card and spare parts and have done it with several tanks. I don't need to worry about the bars/machinery on the drive wheels as when the armour is over the G5, you only see the bottoms of the drive wheels.
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