Bachmann Deltic Review.

wrong" and I don't think that anyone on or off this group can be allowed to make blanket statements like that and not expect a reaction.

Is this a trick of the light as well?

bent/distorted.

"Tessy" wrote

That should be in the past tense, Steve no longer moderates demod.

John.

My apologies. I haven't been there in a while.

=> I do strive for an overall prototypical illusion and my =>GER operates in a decidedly prototypical manner,

And affter visiting your website and admiring your pix, I'd say you succeeded.

Wolf Kirchmeir ................................. If you didn't want to go to Chicago, why did you get on this train? (Garrison Keillor)

< remaining vitriolic rant snipped>

Hidden agenda ! What planet are you on ?

If Ian *was* indeed a Bachmann employee with free-reign to correct all the small detail errors, then the Backmann model Deltic would probably have been near perfect;-) Unfortunately it seems that Bachmann went elsewhere for their 'information':-(

Steve Jones is attacking Ian, for trying to list some of the detail errors in Bachmann's Deltic in a reasonable and civilised manner. Talk about throwing all your toys out of the pram !

Steve, you have not really offered much in the way of detailed critisism of the Bachmann Deltic apart from producing two photographs taken from different perspectives. Then claiming that the nose is a "country mile" out. That's not really much practical help to anybody really is it ? Perhaps you get the UK Ready-To-Run models you deserve ?

Part of the problem with producing good ready to run models in the UK appears to be the relative scaresity of *accurate* drawings. In an ideal world, the NRM would be instrumental in archieving all old diesel locomotive manufacturer collections of drawings. However, in reality the NRM appear to be fixated with the 'steam' era. Most so called 'modern' drawings seem to end up in the scrap bin when the works close. As we speak the Vulcan Foundry is being demolished and Preston is due to close 'real soon now'.

If the quality of Ready-to-Run locomotives in the UK is going to improve, then we need more of the likes of Francis Knight and Ian, who devote lots of their time and energy in trying to produce accurate drawings and recording details of Deltics. We need more informed discussion, and less raving lunatics in this hobby;-)

The Deltic Preservation Society has now become an educational charity, so I expect that their collection of Deltic drawings and documents will soon be available to the public for study. However, I suspect that even the DPS lacks a complete set of Deltic drawings.

Ralph

Ian

Have replied direct to you re drawings, let me know if you get the mail.

Very good review mate, and I was very annoyed with the reply from Mr Jones! Simply bloody rude!

"fladda" wrote

Good grief, I despair, why when there are examples of the prototype in preservation is *scarcity of accurate drawings* an issue?

All the model makers have got to do is go measure up one of the preserved examples, and seek out the manufacturers' works drawings and compare these with their own findings.

Do you know that for sure? I was under the impression that the NRM had archived lots of diesel material.

Indeed, I can't agree with you more, which is basically what I said earlier.

John.

or look at

- looks like it curves round the nose to me...

Adrian

In message , Adrian writes

I'm glad I'm not interested in those locos!

After a while on the various e-groups you get used to Steve's postings!

Though I would usually agree 100% with the general statement that people are allowed (and indeed should be encouraged) to disagree, form their own opinions, etc., I'm not sure this applies here. Whether or not the Bachmann Deltic has the correctly-shaped nose is a matter of fact, not opinion. Whether or not the model is acceptable to you is where the value judgement comes in. As I'm not terribly familiar with the prototype, I'd say it seems to have that anteater look possessed by the 37, but otherwise it looks OK

*for my own personal standards*. However, the 'compromise' of the nose shape might be totally unacceptable for those who are more discerning than me. I am grateful to those who have higher standards as I feel that only by pointing out the errors and demanding better products will standards improve.

On a related topic, I'm concerned that in the model press recently (particularly when discussing recently-released diesel locos!) there's been a few references to the more critical people in our hobby. The press seem to think that these people should be silent. It's extraordinary that a few critical comments on an e-group could have had such a far-reaching effect. Why should the model 'establishment' be so paranoid as to wish to crush dissent!?

Regards,

Stuart.

Of course it is, but the assessment of the degree of error is a matter of opinion. That the nose is less than perfect is in little doubt, but to read some of the posts here and elsewhere, you'd think they'd stuck an HST nose on the damn thing. Talk of "ski-jumps" and the like doesn't help matters. What we want is the facts, not exegeration and hyperbolae.

I agree completely. As I've said elsewhere, if we want the manufacturers to improve standards and correct the errors, we have two tools we can use:

*Construcrive* critisism (the more outlandish rants are tend to have the opposite effect), and voting with our wallets. I suppose that Mr Jones would like his comments to convince more of us not to buy the 55, but, again, it has the opposite effect with me.

Having said all of that, if we all decided to boycot the 55, that would just mean that Bachmann's proffits would take a nose-dive (so-to-speak) and that is unlikely to improve standards in the long term.

Again. Agreed - hence my plan for a "warts-and-all" review web-site.

I find it surprising that the 55 comes in for more critisism than the 50. To me, the character of the 55 is pretty close to the real thing, whereas the missing "sad-eyed" look of the 50 is very noticable. That said, I have both (well I will when my kids hand them over tomorrow morning). Of far more concern to me is the reports of the Deltic derailing on the transition to curves... Has anyone else experienced this or is it just the corespondant on MREmag?

Thanks for that dimension Francis. My own attempt at scale drawings shows an identical dimension at 1.0mm in 4mm scale. I have attempted to measure this dimension on the Bachmann model, but the roughness of the bodyshell along the solebar makes it hard to gain the required accuracy (and I doubt if the model's owner would appreciate me filing it!). The best I could manage was a measurement of 0.95 to 1.0mm.

The greater steepness therefore derives from the nose length at the centre line. In a previous post, I mentioned that the windscreen V-angle looked too sharp, and this has apparently shortened the nose at its centre. Plus the large fillet radius between screen and nose also shortens it. The nose length from the leading edge of the doors to the point of the windscreen surround (at the base of the fillet) is

14.4mm (measuring parallel with the nose top). If Francis knows this dimension from measuring a full size loco, then we can produce an approximate figure for the error in angle.

Ian

Thanks for that dimension Francis. My own attempt at scale drawings shows an identical dimension at 1.0mm in 4mm scale. I have attempted to measure this dimension on the Bachmann model, but the roughness of the bodyshell along the solebar makes it hard to gain the required accuracy (and I doubt if the model's owner would appreciate me filing it!). The best I could manage was a measurement of 0.95 to 1.0mm.

The greater steepness therefore derives from the nose length at the centre line. In a previous post, I mentioned that the windscreen V-angle looked too sharp, and this has apparently shortened the nose at its centre. Plus the large fillet radius between screen and nose also shortens it. The nose length from the leading edge of the doors to the point of the windscreen surround (at the base of the fillet) is

14.4mm (measuring parallel with the nose top). If Francis knows this dimension from measuring a full size loco, then we can produce an approximate figure for the error in angle.

Ian

The holes in the bodysides of the model for these side windows measure about 10.2 x 5.3mm. That is a shade under-size for the outside of the frames. The clear plastic which incorporates the frames is not a snug fit in these holes, thus the windows are more noticeably smaller than they should be.

As I detailed in my review, this model has a number of slight errors like this, but the greatest deviation from prototype appearance is with the cast-frame bogies (which suggests a lack of research in this area). The fabricated frame bogies as seen on Bachmann's 37, are more accurate, but there is room for detail improvement. I would also like to see the flanges at the frame edges given a slight chamfer to provide the illusion that they are thin. As they are, they look way too thick. These fabricated bogies are of the type fitted with cast head/tail-stocks as seen on most 37s in recent years, but not correct for an early Deltic (1961-65) although the difference from the side view is minor.

Perfectionists might also note some of the large number of detail changes made during the 1960s, for instance, the original axleboxes which resembled the Prototype Deltic's (except for the embossed writing and the colour). Also, the buffers were changed and the body cowling around them cut away to acommodate the larger sized replacements. The appearance of the windscreens changed early on after the fitting of film for de-misting. These introduced that characteristic blue/purple tint. Okay, that's enough "rivet-counting" for now :)

Ian

Phew! I thought he meant me for a moment :) Thanks to all those who gave support and some contructive debate.

Ian

Many thanks for your kind assistance received by e-mail.

Ian

=>Perfectionists might also note some of the large number of detail =>changes made during the 1960s, for instance, the original axleboxes =>which resembled the Prototype Deltic's (except for the embossed =>writing and the colour). Also, the buffers were changed and the body =>cowling around them cut away to acommodate the larger sized =>replacements. The appearance of the windscreens changed early on after =>the fitting of film for de-misting. These introduced that =>characteristic blue/purple tint. Okay, that's enough "rivet-counting" =>for now :) =>

=>Ian

Naw, that's just the kind of information needed by those who are convinced they know _all_ about the loco, and that Bachmann should be strung by the jewels and tapped with a silver teaspoon. It's a reminder that no model will ever be 100% accurate, since over time and space so much variation creeps in. Major dimensions and body shape should be spot on IMO, major detail likewise, but deviation by a couple percent is OK, considering the not entirely controllable factors of shrinkage etc. All the rest is up to the individual to bring to whataver standard he has. That's what the after market in detail parts is for. :-)

It also has occurred to me more than once that the mold makers in China have of course never seen the real thing, are working from drawings and photographs, and must perforce interpret the data as best they can. Errors are bound to happen.

Wolf Kirchmeir ................................. If you didn't want to go to Chicago, why did you get on this train? (Garrison Keillor)

=>Of far more =>concern to me is the reports of the Deltic derailing on the transition to =>curves... Has anyone else experienced this or is it just the corespondant on =>MREmag?

It may be as much a side effect of using sectional track as of the bogie design itself (always assuming wheels are in gauge, etc.) If you are using sectional track, derailments are much increased at the transition from straight to curve. There is a sudden lurch as the bogies have to go from parallel to the body to angled practically in an instant. The slightest interference with free movement may well cause trouble. Use easement curves, and all rolling stock will operate better - and look better, too.

Another problem with all sectional track is the high risk of slight mismatches at the joints - again, a cause of derailments. I recommend against using sectional track on any permanent layout. If you must do so, solder all the joints and file them smooth. Also cut through the web below the rail in the sections at the beginning of the curves, and bend those sections to provide easements.

Wolf Kirchmeir ................................. If you didn't want to go to Chicago, why did you get on this train? (Garrison Keillor)