Hornby B12 Derailments

I've just bought a new, China made, Hornby B12 and the tender derails on just about every Peco code 100 point on my layout. The back to back
measurements of the tender wheels seem rather narrow and the tender frames also seem very close together, which doesn't give a lot of space for improving things.
I have heard of other people having trouble with the tenders of these locos. Does anyone know of a solution, perhaps a supplier of better tender wheels?
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Gerald H wrote:

Hornby should supply correctly spaced wheels. If they don't, send the #^%#% thing back. You're paying enough of your hard earned moolah for the loco, after all.
cheers,
wolf k.
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Fair enough, but this may take time. I operate some of the new Hornby stock on finescale track, ie B/B 14.2 mm minimum. I get a lot of Hornby stuff which is tighter than this. If it is just the B12 tender which is giving bother you can increase the B/B yourself by taking the wheels out and gently twisting the wheelset while pulling the wheels away from each other. I have also done loco driving wheels using a slightly more brutal technique which I won't bother you with here. The twist and pull technique works a treat on coaches and wagons and I did my A4 tender that way as well.
We need to remember these models are assembled by people who have no idea what they are making. I guess wheel sets are delivered ready assembled and the little Chinese ladies just drop them in. No one is testing anything much these days. If they did, prices would be much higher.
Personally I think Hornby wheels are so improved over the old 'steam roller' wheels that a small amount of fiddling is a price I am pepared to pay.
Alistair W
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Agree with Alistair on that, if youre a bit clumsy occasionaly esp with wheel cleaning then tis worth getting used to checking/correcting b2b. Although its new would also check wheels are clean with no bits of gunge adjacent to flanges.
Cheers, Simon
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Judging by the number of B2B gauges I have sold in the last few months, this is becoming more of a problem, especially on the finer scale track.
Pete.
On Wed, 27 May 2009 21:32:48 +0100, "Alistair Wright"

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Sending it back to Hornby would be a bit of a pain and looking at the tender chassis (see below) it's hard to see how they could resolve it, unless later Chinese B12's have a different tender chassis.
Moving the wheels out on the axles would be the obvious thing to do, but my China made B12 surprisingly has Triang-style sleeved axles. The back- to-back measurement is thus determined by the length of the inner sleeves which is too short. I could try and fit a tiny washer in there to push the sleeves apart, but the sideframes are pretty tight. Another option might be to find non-sleeved wheels that would push onto the axle.
A lot of ex-set B12's seem to be on offer at very good prices at the moment, so I'm wondering whether others have had the same problem. The loco chassis runs very well.
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Hi Gerald
The split-sleeve axle design goes back more years than most would care to remember.
The solution is to remove the wheel/split axles and reduce the moulded boss on the outside face of each wheel. It is not essential to insert a spacer as the wheels will adapt to the flangeways by themselves.
Regards
--
Bill Campbell

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Thanks for all your help on this. I have solved the problem.
As suggested I removed the wheels and filed down the moulded boss on the outside of each wheel axle. I also filed down any moulding bumps on the inside of the tender frames which allowed the wheels to spread further when going through the points. With old Triang wheels this would have been enough, but as the newer Hornby sleeved wheels have smaller flanges, the wheels were still rising up over the check rails.
I solved it by getting a plastic drinks bottle, flattening it out and making washers out it. These washers are exactly the right thickness to spread the wheels by the required amount.
To make the washers, just clamp the plastic to your Workmate, drill axle sized holes in it and then cut around each of them with scissors.
The axle with the exhaust steam sound thingy on it is a little more complex. You have to gently force off the metal clip and then separate the two halves of the axles with a razor saw, as they may have been glued together. I had to put two washers on that axle to compensate for the cut of the razor saw.
The tender now runs perfectly and it cost me nothing... :)
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Gerald H wrote: [...]

I admire your ingenuity and persistence, but I would have sent the model back. If you can fix the problem with such low-tech methods, then Hornby could easily redesign the frame so that correctly sized wheel sets would fit.
Anyhow, you had fun, and that's what really counts, eh? ;-)
cheers,
wolf k.
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If it had been a bigger fault I would have sent it back, I also got the loco at such a low price (a new tender loco for less than GBP 30!) that I was happy to do a bit of fiddling. The time I spend fiddling was probably little more than it would have taken me to package it up and go to the Post Office. I was also worried about the postal system causing more damage, or losing it...
I must admit that I do like to do a bit of tweaking with my models and the simpler, more robust, models like the B12 are great for this as they are cheaper and less fragile.
Despite being in my 40's, I also like smoke generators, chuff chuff noises and wagons with opening doors that I can put stuff in. Boys never grow up...
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wrote:

That might have been true in the days of Trix Twin and Tri-ang where the principal of tracking was akin to rolling a golf ball along household spouting, but the slightly finer standards of today depend on the guard rail pulling the back of the flange of the wheel that is away from the frog pulling the wheel traversing the frog clear of the V rail. (frog) You need those wheels rigidly connected via the axle.
Regards, Greg.P.
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Hi Greg
You may be interested to know that the Tri-ang crane truck I converted as described is quite happy on Scaleway plain track and handbuilt copperclad turnouts to fine OO standards. The wheel flanges have not required modification.
The only other change was the use of a wire retainer to keep the axles from falling out of the bearings when the truck is lifted.
Regards
--
Bill Campbell

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wrote:

Hi Bill, Having been a modeller (European + UK HO + Tri-ang NZ) for 50 years now, I have a collection with just about every wheel type you can imagine. I long ago concluded that I would never catch up with getting all those wheels to a single standard, so now I just convert the worst runners and those that look really bad. That IMHO adds up to a lot of experience :-)
Sure, reasonably modern Hornby wheels can co-operate with reasonably finescale turnouts. (on plain track, it's just flange depth that counts) I'd guess that your split-sleeve wheelsets are tight enough so that they don't actually move on the axle under normal operating conditions and that they just happen to be at a spacing (BtoB) that suits your turnouts. The turnouts might even have bumped the wheels apart to the right spacing. :-) I wouldn't count on having the same luck with other examples of those wheels.
Regards, Greg.P.
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"Gerald H" wrote

It should go back to the retailer from which you bought it, but if that's not feasible, then Hornby have a 'freepost' address for warranty repairs.
John.
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I have had similar problems with various locos -- mainly Bachmann. After endless checks and measurements I tried a random swap of axel sets and that did the trick in each case. Most of the problems arose on curved points whist going astern.
regards
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"Gerald H" wrote

From memory these still have the original Tri-ang spec plastic tender wheels, which have gross flanges and a back-to-back of around 13mm (14.5 to 15.0 been considered appropriate these days). The B12 also has a terrible reputation for wearing out the drive gears.
I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole.
John.
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John Turner wrote:

It doesn't still have the "chuff-chuff" cam on it well, does it? :-)
--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.me.uk /
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"Paul Boyd" wrote

Some of the early Chinese made ones had, not sure about the more recent examples.
John.
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Mine still has the chuff chuff sound, goes round 1st radius curves with fully flanged wheels and cost me (new) less than GBP 30 :)
It'll look a bit better when I glaze the cab, stick in a crew and plug in the vacuum pipes.
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wrote:

That one had a good mechanism with the excellent Triang motor and two start worm.
Many kits were designed around it, including my Wills Saint, even though the wheelbase was wrong.

The rebuilt B12 was actually due to Thompson during his tenure at Stratford, not Gresley, and was probably his best engine - even better IMO than the B1. I didn't see them very often because I lived on the former Metropolitan and Great Central not the Great Eastern.
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