N - which is out of scale?

=>Hi all, =>I have recently completed a Peco wagon kit for the LNER brake in N for a =>little forray into the scale for a shunting layout in a boxfile, but when =>placing it next to the second hand wagons I've collected, it looks MUCH =>smaller, not much taller than a Farish 7-plank, and about 7mm lower than an =>old Lima vent van. I would expect the Lima to be overscale ... but the size =>in relation to the 7plank is making me wonder! =>

=>Cheers for any help, =>

=>Justin

Some background info may help you figure things out, so here goes:

UK N is 1:152, which makes the rolling stock oversize for thr track (same discrepancy as OO on 16.5mm track). Most of the rest of the world uses 1:160. IIRC, Japan uses still another scale. I had some Farish N stuff a while back, it looked to me that it rode too high, perhaps the W irons were oversize to allow for the deep flanges on the wheels, so they wouldn't rub on the bottom of the frame. But I never measured it. IMO, you would do well to buy or make a 2mm = 1ft scale (make FT markings every 2mm on a 150mm ruler), and compare your rolling stock to some plans. There are excellent planbooks available. For a layout to look right, it's more important to have a consistent scale than a 100% accurate one.

HTH&GL

Wolf Kirchmeir ................................. If you didn't want to go to Chicago, why did you get on this train? (Garrison Keillor)

"Wolf Kirchmeir" wrote

I think you'll actually find that UK n-scale is 1:148, or at least 2 1/16th mm : 1 foot.

John.

If I recollect correctly this particular problem can be traced back to Peco and Cyril Freezer! You are correct that British N is 1:148 although I've never seen it expressed in 16ths of a mm before

Long before N the established scale/gauge in the UK was '000' the scale being half of '00' at 2mm to the foot (1:152) whilst the gauge used is the almost exact 9.5mm. These days you don't hear much of 000 its known as 2mm scale. See

When N started with the import of the German (Arnold) stock in 1:160 scale Peco decided to make UK bodies to fit the Arnold chassis. As in

00 relative size issues led them to choose a larger scale. Although 1:152 would have been the obvious choice they went for 1:148. Whether this was a mistake, ignorance or perversity I've no idea.

But the difference between the two for small UK 4 wheel wagons is barely noticeable so its not the source of your discrepancy, more likely one or other is out of scale.

Keith Make friends in the hobby. Visit Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.

Changed from the older "coarse" standard of 9.5mm to the finer "Groves" standard of 9.42mm from the early 1960's onwards, which is even more accurate :-)

N being first letter of nine in most European languages, 9mm gauge is near enough scale for 1:160 (correct is 8.97mm, where upon one should look up the FiNe standard of the Fremo group).

Bloody stupid to make the same mistake as OO/HO decades earlier...

If you said the above to a 4mm modeller, they'd have a fit... The difference between a typical N gauge wagon and a 2mm scale one is rather a lot.

Back at the original question, AFAIK, all three are out of scale. The Peco is likely to be closest to N (1:148). The Lima will be furthest away, and the Farish inbetween.

BTW. I've heard of N gauge modellers wanting instructions on how to chop very accurate 2mm Scale Association kits in half to make them wider and taller to match their N gauge stock !!!

- Nigel webmaster at

latest project - a train of five GE 4 wheeled coaches:

On a 16ft long open wagon, 1mm on the length, 1/2mm on the height and width.

A lot of 4mm rtr have bigger discrepancies, lots of 16ft wagons are

17'6" for example and the Heljan 47 is over a mm overwidth, lots of people call those who mention it names for being fussy.

And I have noticed N gauge stock being used by 2mm modellers .

Keith Make friends in the hobby. Visit Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.

=>On a 16ft long open wagon, 1mm on the length, 1/2mm on the height and =>width.

Ok, ok, ok!

Now, what _is_ the "correct" scale for N - 9mm gauge? The truly correct scale would b 1:160, but I know in the UK it's Different.

TIA

Wolf Kirchmeir ................................. If you didn't want to go to Chicago, why did you get on this train? (Garrison Keillor)

UK N gauge is 1:148. The better stuff is made to 1:148 scale. But that can be very approximate, if you measure some items they will be different scales in different directions.

The older (by at least 20 years, arguably 50 years) standard is 1:152, which is used by the small 2mm finescale movement, but has no volume manufacturer making items to the scale.

Correct if those N vehicles were to scale, and within most vehicle types this is less than the variation between different designs of vehicles. But, unfortunately vehicles are often very much over scale. For example, mineral wagons which are 2mm or 3mm over width.

We're splitting hairs over language :-)

I know. I tend to agree with Steve Jones' comments - its a shame that makers get things that wrong, and it looks as if that is partly caused by low critical standards in the UK.

N is the same - my small collection of US outline Kato and Atlas locos and Intermountain freight cars are far better than anything in currently available UK RTR N gauge. Things are slightly better with the newest Bachman/Farish releases, but its still far behind the best.

Yes. I have some stuff, carefully selected to look right when used with matching items. And a few to pull out to really emphasis how horrible some N gauge stuff can be.

- Nigel

"NC"

So?

Been like in both N and HO scale for donkey's years. :-)

-- Happy Holidays Roger T.

of the Great Eastern Railway

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Reminds me of the Renault advert " Size Matters"

But then who would buy a Renault?

You will find vaious vehicles are out of scale deendent of the manufacturers whim/capabilities.

Does size really matter? Depends on what you are happy with and how you use it!

Yoda

Keith Norgrove wrote: > You are correct that British N is 1:148 although I've never seen it > expressed in 16ths of a mm before

This is how RM expressed it on the wagon plans pages in the 70s.

Cheers David

If you will selectively quote... If you included the preceeding paragraphs it sets the context clearly.

Yes, and the UK modellers continue to purchase the sub-standard products offered.

"NC" <

Did I put in the "So"? Haven't a clue why and really don't understand the comment about selective quoting. My following sentence agreed with you about substandard UK products.

See, now that's my quote. Agrees with you.

They do indeed.

-- Happy Holidays Roger T.

of the Great Eastern Railway

I suppose they were having trouble coming to terms with decimals, as they now are with the internet. And they got it wrong to, 1:148 is closer to 2 and 1/17th mms. Keith Make friends in the hobby. Visit Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.