Time Scales

Surely someone knows when these changes were. Please guys I've tried internet searches with no result & out here in rural Alberta there's not a lot of people with LNER knowledger about.

Norman

Don't know Norman, as not my railway or time scale. But here is a web site that might help

or closer to home for you

which has an index of many magazines.

Or closer to my home

Sometimes this newsgroup would rather argue about empty model railway boxes than anything useful :-)

Kevin Martin

Melbourne Australia

Assuming you mean the change from old to new totems, late 1950s I think.

Assuming you mean the A4s, 4 were built with double chimneys and the rest got them between May 1957 and November 1958.

What you need is the LNER E-group on lner-list at yahoogroups.

I think the problem you have here Norman, is that your question is vague and would require someone to write a book to give any sort of meaningful answer. First you ask when did BR emblems change from small to large, so what emblem are you asking about? If you mean the emblems carried on locos the early ones came in two sizes intended for locos with different sized spaces to put them in. However different workshops had different ideas on which size to put where. You have to find photos of the specific loco you are interested in if you want to be accurate. Both sizes were used in parallel. The later emblem was introduced in 1956 so would only appear on a newly shopped loco in your time frame but similarly had two sizes. For a general view of the changes try and find Railway Liveries, BR Steam 1948-68 by Brian Haresnape ISBN

0-7110-1856-1, you never know what Amazon can find. As for when the 'A's got double chimneys, how long is a piece of string? The Eastern Region in your time frame had several hundred locos in classes from A1 to A10 and was still building them. Some had double chimneys some didn't. The date when they were changed, if they were changed is different for every individual loco. You have to chose your loco and then find out. There are books a plenty and lots of websites, pick your class or even specific loco number and get busy with Google and google-images, also search on LNER etc. Also you can find the HMRS and most line societies via

Keith

railway

It's nothing like that, the problem was that the OP's question were just far to wide, his chosen time period he would have seen both BR 'coats of arms' [1] although he would be safer running only the early version. As for "When did the 'A's change from single to double chimney?" - which 'A' class, 1,2, 3 or 4....

You see, it's not a willingness to help, but a willingness for some to ask coherent question, after using Google searches (for both Internet and Usenet) - for example this site was mentioned regarding LNER loco's etc only a week or two back,

Anyway, out of arguments comes facts, it's called debating the issue....

[1] yes I know that they are not really Coats of Arms.

Norman,

To add to what others have said, on the matter of ex LNER locomotives, your best bet would be to get a copy, or copies, of the appropriate Yeadons books to get all the nit picking detail about an LNER loco class. I think the complete list of the books is on this site.

I've got Volume 16 which covers the V1/V3 and L1 tanks and it is full of information about each individual locomotive - like where they were shedded and dates and details of repairs, overhauls, etc. There's a good potted history of the classes and a load of very good photographs, covering LNER and BR days, so plenty of examples of liveries in BR days.

Jim.

Nother good series of books comes form these people:

They do a series of photo albums called British Railways, then and now, with a then picture and a now picture, captioned. Have a look, they certainly do more than one volume covering yorkshire and prototype pictures like this will tell you more than anything what you want to know.

No! No! No! We never argue on this newsgroup! We were discussing, and what we were discussing was the legitimacy of discussing empty boxes. This is an important distinction, you know. Historians of the future will be carefully analysing the archives of this newsgroup for the undisputed facts about railway modelling, and we do not want to mislead them, do we?

Cheers, Steve

My apologies Steve

You are absolutely correct, as a Monty Python fan I ought to know better. This quote is what discussion ought to be all about.

I'm sure that you expect the right to have babies?

Kevin Martin

My apologies Steve

You are absolutely correct, as a Monty Python fan I ought to know better. This quote is what discussion ought to be all about.

I'm sure that you expect the right to have babies?

Kevin Martin

Thank you very much Tim. You have given me the exact information I was seeking. It does raise one immediate question for me though if you are correct about the A4s. TMC have 60032 Gannet listed as; A4, early crest, SINGLE CHIMNEY, non corridor.

Thanks too to Kevin Martin for expressing my thoughts so well & taking the flak. I have come to the conclusion after a couple of years of lurking here is that the ng has become an 'old boys club' not very tolerant of newcomers & definitely more interested in debating possible announcements from manufacturers than helping newbies. As I travelled on a regular basis from Tees-side to South Hampshire from 1943 - 1958 & from Tees-side to Weston-s-Mare from 1958 - 1966 I've decided that imagination rules not prototype. Thanks to all who helped Norman

You really know how to make friends - not...

Now that really is a classic!

TOS

Back on the empty box topic, there was a record collector on the US Antiques Road Show with a large collection of Beatle-related 45s, complete with sleeves. He said he had picked up some of the records for $1, but paid up to $150 for an empty sleeve!

Jerry I'm actually a very friendly guy. I asked a very friendly question which initially drew no response at all friendly or otherwise. I asked again & apart from Tim & Kevin who gave me the information I was seeking the rest of the replies seemed to be of the go away & read books (books I have to say I can't afford on a limited budget). I think the real answer to your statement is, friendly is as friendly does. I would really would have liked to ask a coherent question & thought I had. Couldn't you, instead of being pedantic about 'coats of arms', have given rough dates for the change from British rail on tenders to the early crest to the late crest & for chimney changes to ALL As. Now that in my book would have been FRIENDLY, But what the heck I didn't come here for an argument I came seeking enlightenmen so I'll go back to lurking in the hope of catching some crumbs from the old boys table. Once again thanks to all those who helped

Norman in Alberta

Dont do it Norman we lesser time expired (newbies after the few seconds of 5 years in the hobby !) are needed in the group. As another long term lurker that has decided to jump in I recon there are some very helpful and knowledgable people here but without new blood occasionally it will become the old boys table you describe. Topics will become stale and jokes doing the rounds yet again.

There does seem to be a bit of a score points culture but when its tempered with humour - as some do - then who cares.

As an extra to the info you were given someone may say that some workshops were slower at implementing livery changes than others. Plus in most cases locos wouldnt get the new livery untill due for major overhaul. In the unlikely event I remember correctly, late BR crest came in 1957 but there would still be many engines with early emblem in the early 60's. If any errors there then someone please correct ....

I'll say again Normon - keep posting - I might.

Cheers, Simon

otherwise.

Guessed correctly would be a better way of putting it, I had a 1 in 4 chance of answering your question correctly but chose not to guess but ask what 'A' class you meant - how is that wrong?

of the replies seemed to be of the go away & read

friendly

I suggested you Googled, not buy books, I even gave you a URL that might have shed some light on one of your questions.

thought I

No, that is the point, they didn't change all the BR 'insignia' over night, some loco's still had 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' on tender or tank sides as late as 1950, or still had the early 'coat of arms' in the early 1960's, I did say that you could use the later example but would be safer to only use the early example, as for the chimney changes - again on which class of 'A' and then what do you want if you had told us the actual class (rather than the wheel arrangement!), some one to write a dissertation on the modifications to a whole class, the advise you were given was to find a photo of a loco in the given year that you want to model which is the best advise you or anyone can be given.

Now

didn't

Friendly people accept what they get, arsewipes expect...

"Norman" wrote

It didn't - it was dependent upon the size of the loco. Or do you mean when did it change from early to late emblem? If so the answer was 1957.

Some A4s were built with double chimneys as were some A1s and some A2s.

Relevent to what?

John.

Well we know which class you put yourself in as you "expected" my to ask a coherent question/ Thanks Jerry you have once again re-enforced the fact that newcomers are not welcome in this newsgroup. I have the emails off group & your attitude to back that statement up.