OT My second electric bike

On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 13:04:31 -0400, Ed Huntress Gave us:

Wow... a real workhorse of a system.

Which means that bringing it up in this thread makes all the sense in the world, right?

Yeah it is, or it probably will be when it's on the market, as you would realize if you knew anything about real-world operations in a fab shop. You don't use it at full power except in short periods, and the wireless charger will keep it going. In real-world use, you're typically swapping at least two batteries during the course of a day.

John's experiment is interesting for several reasons, but one of them is that he's using what probably are the most advanced high-density lithium-ion, high-current-output batteries you can buy in a consumer product. I brought up the new Metabo to show that he's on the right track with the batteries, at least. That battery -- even the ones on the market right now -- far exceed the capability of most other Li-ion batteries. The cordless power tool business is fiercely competitive and it's produced some of the most advanced battery-powered tools and devices.

So he started with something that most people scoff at -- I've been skeptical, but I didn't scoff -- and he ignored us while he plowed ahead. I admire his determination and it appears he's shown just how feeble the Li-ion batteries in electric bicycles are, by comparison, on a per-pound basis.

No DOT approved tires, no DOT approved brakes, no throttle/brake disconnect, no DOT approved lighting - it does not comply to any requirements of the highway traffic acts - it is unlicenced (and unliceseable) and uninsured (and uninsureable)

It does not fall into the pedal assisted bike category.

It is an illegal motorcycle, and total fines for getting caught with it on the road, if the cop wants to make an example of him, could excede several thousand dollars -

It's unlikely he'd be charged in NJ or most other states, unless he caused an injury. Our "pedal-assisted" catagory is pretty loose, and the cops are more interested in how fast you go and how safely you ride than in whether you have pedals.

If he hurt someone with it, though, they'd probably hit him with a violation.

They are legal in Nevada, don't even need a drivers license to operate them on public roads.

Best Regards. Tom.

Big deal. He is doing metalworking. And with what he has used to do the metalworking and with what final result is, I'm impressed. And his posts are appropriate for this newsgroup. Eric

Technically, they may be similar. I made a mistake there -- Metabo does not have a wireless charger (yet). Bosch does.

I wound up with a fairly long article on the subject. My cover photo is interesting -- a hand-held, cordless metalworking bandsaw, from Milwaukee Tool.

Same here no bikes on the sidewalks, we have dedicated bike lanes on the road. Lots of folkes have electric bikes here. When it's time for me to hang up the car keys for good i will be using an electric trike.

Best Regards. Tom.

On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 14:10:39 -0700, Gunner Asch Gave us: snip

Only if it is insured and most insurers will not insure a junk heap.

On Sat, 2 Jul 2016 20:53:31 -0000 (UTC), John Doe Gave us:

So someone says something you do not like and suddenly you brand them as a troll, and copy and paste their post and add stupid newsgroups to your reply, and you want folks to believe that she is the troll, and not you.

You really are one sick pup, boy.

If he could pass the inspection - meaning useing Moped tires instead of bike tires and verifying his brakes meet the required performance spec etc. - Which he has not done - and the process is not cheap

for the state of Maine:

1. Definition. "Experimental motor vehicle" means any motor vehicle in the developmental stage that has not yet reached production.

1. Inspection and equipment. An experimental motor vehicle is exempt from inspection requirements under section 1751 but must comply with the equipment standards of chapter 17 to include at a minimum: body components, an exhaust system, reflectors, running gear, tires, a horn, lights, directional signals, brakes, a steering mechanism, windshield wipers, safety seat belts and rearview mirrors.

2. Experimental motor vehicle inventor registration. A person in the business of developing experimental motor vehicles shall register with the Secretary of State as an experimental motor vehicle inventor. The Secretary of State shall develop and implement an application process, including but not limited to name, address and description and photographs of the experimental motor vehicle in development.

1. Experimental motor vehicle plate. The Secretary of State shall issue a registration plate for an experimental motor vehicle to a registered experimental motor vehicle inventor. This plate may be used for one or more experimental motor vehicles during the term of the registration provided that those vehicles are owned by the person issued the registration plate. The Secretary of State may issue no more than 2 plates per registered experimental motor vehicle inventor. The registration for an experimental motor vehicle must be renewed annually.

2. Fee. The Secretary of State shall charge an annual fee of for each plate issued under this section.

1. Insurance. The Secretary of State may not issue an experimental motor vehicle registration plate until the applicant has procured and filed with the Secretary of State a certificate showing that the applicant is covered by an automobile bodily injury and property damage liability insurance policy providing coverage against any legal liability when injury, death or damage results from or has been caused by the operation of any vehicle bearing an experimental motor vehicle registration plate.

2. Limitations on use. A person may not operate an experimental motor vehicle on a public way with a posted speed limit that exceeds the capability of that vehicle to achieve and safely maintain that speed. Experimental motor vehicles are prohibited from operation on the interstate highway system and Maine Turnpike at all times. A person may operate an experimental motor vehicle only in daylight hours.

1. Rulemaking. The Secretary of State shall adopt rules to establish the application criteria and process by which a person may qualify to receive an experimental motor vehicle registration plate. Rules adopted pursuant to this subsection are routine technical rules as defined in Title 5, chapter 375, subchapter 2-A.

2. Violations. The operation of any motor vehicle registered under this section that is not in compliance with this section is a traffic infraction.

SECTION HISTORY

For Virginia:

Every person who owns a reconstructed vehicle, specially constructed vehicle, or replica vehicle must obtain a certificate of title and registration for the vehicle before it is operated on any highway. All liens held against the vehicle must be shown on the Virginia title.

Definitions Reconstructed VehicleAny vehicle that has been materially altered from its original construction by the removal, addition, or substitution of

VehicleAny vehicle that was not originally constructed under a distinctive name, make, model, or type by a generally recognized manufacturer of vehicles and which would not be otherwise defined as a

constructed using a Mercury frame and a Chevrolet body.Replica VehicleAny vehicle not fully constructed by a licensed manufacturer, but either constructed or assembled from components. Such components may be from a single vehicle, multiple vehicles, a kit, parts, or fabricated components. The kit may be made up of major components, a full body, or a full chassis, or a combination of these parts. The vehicle must resemble a vehicle of distinctive name, line-make, model, or type as produced by a licensed manufacturer or manufacturer no longer in business and is not a reconstructed or specially constructed

subassemblies of a motor vehicle: (i) front clip assembly, consisting of the fenders, grille, hood, bumper, and related parts; (ii) engine; (iii) transmission; (iv) rear clip assembly, consisting of the quarter panels, floor panels, trunk lid, bumper, and related parts; (v) frame; (vi) air bags; and (vii) any door that displays a vehicle

How to Apply

Follow these steps when applying for a title for a reconstructed, specially constructed or replica vehicle.

Step 1: Submit the following completed forms:

required NOTE: Vehicles such as reconstructed or specially constructed motor vehicles may have existing vehicle identification numbers (VINs) that are no longer appropriate because the vehicle has been fundamentally altered to be an entirely different vehicle for titling purposes. In order to title these types of vehicles, DMV will assign vehicle identification numbers.

If the vehicle is a replica built on a manufactured chassis or a chassis from another vehicle, a VIN usually will not have to be assigned by DMV because the Manufacturer's Certificate (or Statement) of Origin (MCO or MSO) will provide an acceptable VIN for the vehicle. A replica vehicle built on the chassis from another vehicle may use the VIN from the existing chassis, as long as the new vehicle is a replica of the vehicle from which the chassis came. However, DMV must assign a VIN to any replica vehicle that otherwise does not have one, or if the replica does not appear to be the vehicle from which the chassis came.

Any vehicle owner seeking an assignment of VIN from DMV must establish ownership of the vehicle by submitting all titles or other ownership documents for any parts acquired for use in constructing the vehicle. Each type of vehicle has certain components that must be accounted for with a bill of sale, title, certificate of origin and/or a notarized affidavit. These documents must show any identification numbers, sale price, and be properly assigned to the applicant.

Any vehicle, for which an application for a VIN has been made, will be subject to inspection by DMV ("VIN inspection"). In addition, all reconstructed, specially constructed, and replica vehicles must be inspected by DMV's Law Enforcement Services prior to titling, even if the vehicle has an existing, useable VIN. DMV charges a fee for the inspection, verification, or identification of the serial number or VIN of any vehicle.

Step 2: Submit proof of address

Refer to Acceptable Documents for Titling a Vehicle in Virginia (DMV

177) for a list of proof of address documents.

Step 3: Submit properly assigned ownership documents or bills of sale for:

transmission and rear axle)

cab and front axle used to replace a wrecked or retired cab and front axle. Motor vehicle sales and use tax is not required; however, you must provide proof that you paid retail tax.)

manufactured or the title for the chassis if it came from another vehicle

NOTE: For motorcycles, submit properly assigned ownership documents or bills of sale for the following:

Step 4: Submit the following documents:

constructed

the front and side of the vehicle.)

Step 5: Submit the following fees:

NOTE: If the vehicle weighs 26,001 pounds or more, you are exempt from paying sales and use tax. If you paid retail sales tax on any parts at the time of purchase and you are providing proof of payment, no motor vehicle sales and use tax is required.

NOTE: In order to operate your vehicle on Virginia highways, the vehicle must pass a state motor vehicle safety inspection. You must pay the local vehicle registration fee to the locality and display the local sticker or decal on the windshield, if applicable.

Step 6: Submit all documents and fees to: Mailing Address Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles ATTN: Vehicle Branding Work Center P.O. Box 27412 Richmond, VA 23269 Physical Address

2300 W. Broad Street Richmond, VA 23269

NOTE: The estimated turnaround time for this process is 3 weeks, if you submit all required documentation. You must completely assemble the vehicle prior to submitting your original paperwork to DMV for processing. A DMV Investigator will contact you to schedule an appointment to inspect the vehicle and install the VIN plate, if applicable.

Additional Information

Please note the following:

inspection sticker must be displayed on the windshield, if applicable.

applicable. NOTE: Some localities do not require the display of a sticker/decal on a vehicle; however, payment of the local registration fee is still required. Check with the appropriate locality for requirements.

I have very good reason to suspect there is NO WAY he could ever get his contraption licensed as an experimental vehicle in any state of the USA or province of Canada without a significant expenditure and a tital redesign/rebuild.

Not according to

and

also:

Good morning,

Any motorized vehicle which does not have the normal safety equipment such as lights and mirrors or is not built to federal vehicle standards is an off-highway vehicle and is restricted to off-road use only.

Your motorized bicycle would need the brake, turn, headlights, mirrors. You would not be required to wear a helmet. Because it is a motorized vehicle you would be required to have a class C license. The class C license is a standard license which allows you to drive vehicles on Nevada roads.

If I can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to e-mail me back.

Sincerely,

Lea Lescher

DMV Technician II

Central Services Division

For more information or to obtain DMV forms, please visit our website at

or, you may contact a DMV representative by calling:

775-684-4368 for the Carson City / Washoe county area, 702-486-4368 for the Clark county area or 877-368-7828 for all other areas.

Our Phone Service hours are from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Monday - Friday.

Nevada Department of Motor Vehicles

Central Services Division

555 Wright Way

Carson City, NV 89711 Fax: 775-684-4992

c670809, Jun 9, 2008

Federak motor vehicle standards require DOT approved tires among many other things.

Oh boy. Something tells me not to tread here, but.

You're right, it's not an "experimental vehicle" by most state laws. About low-speed electric bicycles, however, it gets sticky. You're right, too, that pedals are required. But, as I said, the cops here in NJ, at least, are focused on safe riding rather than your pedals. I've asked, because I have an O&R bicycle motor, which I had put on my son's bicycle at the time. I got into a discussion of the laws with our DOT a few years back, when they were dealing with the new federal law about electric bikes, which preempt state laws. (I was just curious about the status of electric bikes; mine is gas-powered, but I was considering building an electric pusher and wanted to know where they stood under the law.)

(a) Construction Notwithstanding any other provision of law, low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products within the meaning of section

2052(a)(1)?[1] of this title and shall be subject to the Commission regulations published at section 1500.18(a)(12) and part 1512 of title 16, Code of Federal Regulations.

(b) Definition

means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.

(c) Promulgation of requirements To further protect the safety of consumers who ride low-speed electric bicycles, the Commission may promulgate new or amended requirements applicable to such vehicles as necessary and appropriate.

(d) Preemption This section shall supersede any State law or requirement with respect to low-speed electric bicycles to the extent that such State law or requirement is more stringent than the Federal law or requirements referred to in subsection (a).

116 Stat. 2776.)

The whole thing appears to be in legal limbo. However, I believe that what I said is the actual way cops in NJ are treating the law. If it's electric, they don't care, and they treat it much like any bicycle.

The gas-powered mopeds in NJ are subject to some strict regulations because we had a lot of injuries of younger kids riding mopeds a couple of decades ago, when 14-year-olds could ride them without a license. The 14-year-old son of one of my wife's co-workers was killed on a moped at that time.

The cops here tend to turn a blind eye to even the gas powered power bikes -UNTIL something happens The cops are shy about laying charges, but the judges are not shy about convicting.

Here in Ontario we have motorcycles,limited speed motorcycles, mopeds, and power assisted bicycles. There is a class M (motorcycle) licence, a Class ML (limitted speed motorcycle) license for motorcycles and limited speed motorcycles respectively. Mopeds require the low speed license as well.. All three require plates, insurance, and an approved helmet.

Electric assisted bicycles do not require registration, licence, or insurance and require a bicycle helmet. Rider must be 16 or over, and you are not allowed to ride one if your driver's licence has been revoked for amy reason. They do require pedals and are limited to 2mph and 500 watts of power.

Again, it varies here by state, and some states, like NJ, are stuck in limbo because of the federal preemption I listed above.

The federal preemption is for the definition and classification of low-speed electric bicycles, but the rules of the road for them are up to the states. So in NJ, for example, we could comply with stricter states laws, register the things and ride them like mopeds -- except the state would be violating federal law by requiring stricter equipment laws.

So the state has done nothing. It pretends they don't exist, and doesn't allow the federally defined version on the roads.

At least, that's the way it's been recently, and the state apparently has withdrawn them from the moped rules handbook.

To clarify, that is the way the *law* stands. As I said, the cops don't seem to care about the electric ones.

You forgot to ask them about electric bicycles under 750W.

You seem to think a motorcycle and an electric bike/trike are the same thing. Both are defined in nevada statutes and they are not the same thing. Motorcycles and electric bicycles are treated differently in nevada. Adding an electric motor to power a bicycle does not make it a motorcycle under nevada law.

Best Regards. Tom.

but taking the pedals off does

Read the law. Those scooters without pedals are "off road vehicles" and are illegal even in nevada. Johnny nLaw may turn a blind eye, but by FEDERAL LAW they are illegal, and Nevada does not appear to have done anyyhing as a state to change that. Local districts MAY pass bylaws to allow off-road vehicles to use local roads.