OT My second electric bike

wrote:


50 cc or 750 watts in the USA - is a MOPED
Electric assist (not gasoline) is a different animal and is considered a bicycle AS LONG AS IT CAN BE RIDDEN UNDER PEDAL POWER.
Take the pedals off and it does not fit ANY legal definition for road use.

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On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 09:45:51 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Right. Electric assist limit is 20mph and 1,000W in Oregon.
--
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force.
Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
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On Sat, 2 Jul 2016 20:53:31 -0000 (UTC), John Doe
So someone says something you do not like and suddenly you brand them as a troll, and copy and paste their post and add stupid newsgroups to your reply, and you want folks to believe that she is the troll, and not you.
You really are one sick pup, boy.
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On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 15:35:03 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Big deal. He is doing metalworking. And with what he has used to do the metalworking and with what final result is, I'm impressed. And his posts are appropriate for this newsgroup. Eric
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Gave us: snip

Only if it is insured and most insurers will not insure a junk heap.
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wrote:

If he could pass the inspection - meaning useing Moped tires instead of bike tires and verifying his brakes meet the required performance spec etc. - Which he has not done - and the process is not cheap

for the state of Maine:
1. Definition. "Experimental motor vehicle" means any motor vehicle in the developmental stage that has not yet reached production.
2. Inspection and equipment. An experimental motor vehicle is exempt from inspection requirements under section 1751 but must comply with the equipment standards of chapter 17 to include at a minimum: body components, an exhaust system, reflectors, running gear, tires, a horn, lights, directional signals, brakes, a steering mechanism, windshield wipers, safety seat belts and rearview mirrors.
3. Experimental motor vehicle inventor registration. A person in the business of developing experimental motor vehicles shall register with the Secretary of State as an experimental motor vehicle inventor. The Secretary of State shall develop and implement an application process, including but not limited to name, address and description and photographs of the experimental motor vehicle in development.
4. Experimental motor vehicle plate. The Secretary of State shall issue a registration plate for an experimental motor vehicle to a registered experimental motor vehicle inventor. This plate may be used for one or more experimental motor vehicles during the term of the registration provided that those vehicles are owned by the person issued the registration plate. The Secretary of State may issue no more than 2 plates per registered experimental motor vehicle inventor. The registration for an experimental motor vehicle must be renewed annually.
5. Fee. The Secretary of State shall charge an annual fee of $20 for each plate issued under this section.
6. Insurance. The Secretary of State may not issue an experimental motor vehicle registration plate until the applicant has procured and filed with the Secretary of State a certificate showing that the applicant is covered by an automobile bodily injury and property damage liability insurance policy providing coverage against any legal liability when injury, death or damage results from or has been caused by the operation of any vehicle bearing an experimental motor vehicle registration plate.
7. Limitations on use. A person may not operate an experimental motor vehicle on a public way with a posted speed limit that exceeds the capability of that vehicle to achieve and safely maintain that speed. Experimental motor vehicles are prohibited from operation on the interstate highway system and Maine Turnpike at all times. A person may operate an experimental motor vehicle only in daylight hours.
8. Rulemaking. The Secretary of State shall adopt rules to establish the application criteria and process by which a person may qualify to receive an experimental motor vehicle registration plate. Rules adopted pursuant to this subsection are routine technical rules as defined in Title 5, chapter 375, subchapter 2-A.
9. Violations. The operation of any motor vehicle registered under this section that is not in compliance with this section is a traffic infraction.
SECTION HISTORY
For Virginia:
Every person who owns a reconstructed vehicle, specially constructed vehicle, or replica vehicle must obtain a certificate of title and registration for the vehicle before it is operated on any highway. All liens held against the vehicle must be shown on the Virginia title.
Definitions Reconstructed VehicleAny vehicle that has been materially altered from its original construction by the removal, addition, or substitution of
VehicleAny vehicle that was not originally constructed under a distinctive name, make, model, or type by a generally recognized manufacturer of vehicles and which would not be otherwise defined as a
constructed using a Mercury frame and a Chevrolet body.Replica VehicleAny vehicle not fully constructed by a licensed manufacturer, but either constructed or assembled from components. Such components may be from a single vehicle, multiple vehicles, a kit, parts, or fabricated components. The kit may be made up of major components, a full body, or a full chassis, or a combination of these parts. The vehicle must resemble a vehicle of distinctive name, line-make, model, or type as produced by a licensed manufacturer or manufacturer no longer in business and is not a reconstructed or specially constructed
subassemblies of a motor vehicle: (i) front clip assembly, consisting of the fenders, grille, hood, bumper, and related parts; (ii) engine; (iii) transmission; (iv) rear clip assembly, consisting of the quarter panels, floor panels, trunk lid, bumper, and related parts; (v) frame; (vi) air bags; and (vii) any door that displays a vehicle
How to Apply
Follow these steps when applying for a title for a reconstructed, specially constructed or replica vehicle.
Step 1: Submit the following completed forms:
required NOTE: Vehicles such as reconstructed or specially constructed motor vehicles may have existing vehicle identification numbers (VINs) that are no longer appropriate because the vehicle has been fundamentally altered to be an entirely different vehicle for titling purposes. In order to title these types of vehicles, DMV will assign vehicle identification numbers.
If the vehicle is a replica built on a manufactured chassis or a chassis from another vehicle, a VIN usually will not have to be assigned by DMV because the Manufacturer's Certificate (or Statement) of Origin (MCO or MSO) will provide an acceptable VIN for the vehicle. A replica vehicle built on the chassis from another vehicle may use the VIN from the existing chassis, as long as the new vehicle is a replica of the vehicle from which the chassis came. However, DMV must assign a VIN to any replica vehicle that otherwise does not have one, or if the replica does not appear to be the vehicle from which the chassis came.
Any vehicle owner seeking an assignment of VIN from DMV must establish ownership of the vehicle by submitting all titles or other ownership documents for any parts acquired for use in constructing the vehicle. Each type of vehicle has certain components that must be accounted for with a bill of sale, title, certificate of origin and/or a notarized affidavit. These documents must show any identification numbers, sale price, and be properly assigned to the applicant.
Any vehicle, for which an application for a VIN has been made, will be subject to inspection by DMV ("VIN inspection"). In addition, all reconstructed, specially constructed, and replica vehicles must be inspected by DMV's Law Enforcement Services prior to titling, even if the vehicle has an existing, useable VIN. DMV charges a fee for the inspection, verification, or identification of the serial number or VIN of any vehicle.
Step 2: Submit proof of address
Refer to Acceptable Documents for Titling a Vehicle in Virginia (DMV 177) for a list of proof of address documents.
Step 3: Submit properly assigned ownership documents or bills of sale for:
transmission and rear axle)
cab and front axle used to replace a wrecked or retired cab and front axle. Motor vehicle sales and use tax is not required; however, you must provide proof that you paid retail tax.)
manufactured or the title for the chassis if it came from another vehicle
NOTE: For motorcycles, submit properly assigned ownership documents or bills of sale for the following:
Step 4: Submit the following documents:
constructed
the front and side of the vehicle.)
Step 5: Submit the following fees:
NOTE: If the vehicle weighs 26,001 pounds or more, you are exempt from paying sales and use tax. If you paid retail sales tax on any parts at the time of purchase and you are providing proof of payment, no motor vehicle sales and use tax is required.
NOTE: In order to operate your vehicle on Virginia highways, the vehicle must pass a state motor vehicle safety inspection. You must pay the local vehicle registration fee to the locality and display the local sticker or decal on the windshield, if applicable.
Step 6: Submit all documents and fees to: Mailing Address Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles ATTN: Vehicle Branding Work Center P.O. Box 27412 Richmond, VA 23269 Physical Address 2300 W. Broad Street Richmond, VA 23269
NOTE: The estimated turnaround time for this process is 3 weeks, if you submit all required documentation. You must completely assemble the vehicle prior to submitting your original paperwork to DMV for processing. A DMV Investigator will contact you to schedule an appointment to inspect the vehicle and install the VIN plate, if applicable.
Additional Information
Please note the following:
inspection sticker must be displayed on the windshield, if applicable.
applicable. NOTE: Some localities do not require the display of a sticker/decal on a vehicle; however, payment of the local registration fee is still required. Check with the appropriate locality for requirements.
I have very good reason to suspect there is NO WAY he could ever get his contraption licensed as an experimental vehicle in any state of the USA or province of Canada without a significant expenditure and a tital redesign/rebuild.
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On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 22:37:13 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Oh boy. Something tells me not to tread here, but. <g>
You're right, it's not an "experimental vehicle" by most state laws. About low-speed electric bicycles, however, it gets sticky. You're right, too, that pedals are required. But, as I said, the cops here in NJ, at least, are focused on safe riding rather than your pedals. I've asked, because I have an O&R bicycle motor, which I had put on my son's bicycle at the time. I got into a discussion of the laws with our DOT a few years back, when they were dealing with the new federal law about electric bikes, which preempt state laws. (I was just curious about the status of electric bikes; mine is gas-powered, but I was considering building an electric pusher and wanted to know where they stood under the law.)
(a) Construction Notwithstanding any other provision of law, low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products within the meaning of section 2052(a)(1)?[1] of this title and shall be subject to the Commission regulations published at section 1500.18(a)(12) and part 1512 of title 16, Code of Federal Regulations.
(b) Definition
means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.
(c) Promulgation of requirements To further protect the safety of consumers who ride low-speed electric bicycles, the Commission may promulgate new or amended requirements applicable to such vehicles as necessary and appropriate.
(d) Preemption This section shall supersede any State law or requirement with respect to low-speed electric bicycles to the extent that such State law or requirement is more stringent than the Federal law or requirements referred to in subsection (a).
116 Stat. 2776.)
The whole thing appears to be in legal limbo. However, I believe that what I said is the actual way cops in NJ are treating the law. If it's electric, they don't care, and they treat it much like any bicycle.
The gas-powered mopeds in NJ are subject to some strict regulations because we had a lot of injuries of younger kids riding mopeds a couple of decades ago, when 14-year-olds could ride them without a license. The 14-year-old son of one of my wife's co-workers was killed on a moped at that time.
--
Ed Huntress

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On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:43:48 -0400, Ed Huntress




The cops here tend to turn a blind eye to even the gas powered power bikes -UNTIL something happens The cops are shy about laying charges, but the judges are not shy about convicting.
Here in Ontario we have motorcycles,limited speed motorcycles, mopeds, and power assisted bicycles. There is a class M (motorcycle) licence, a Class ML (limitted speed motorcycle) license for motorcycles and limited speed motorcycles respectively. Mopeds require the low speed license as well.. All three require plates, insurance, and an approved helmet.
Electric assisted bicycles do not require registration, licence, or insurance and require a bicycle helmet. Rider must be 16 or over, and you are not allowed to ride one if your driver's licence has been revoked for amy reason. They do require pedals and are limited to 2mph and 500 watts of power.
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On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 00:17:14 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:




Again, it varies here by state, and some states, like NJ, are stuck in limbo because of the federal preemption I listed above.
The federal preemption is for the definition and classification of low-speed electric bicycles, but the rules of the road for them are up to the states. So in NJ, for example, we could comply with stricter states laws, register the things and ride them like mopeds -- except the state would be violating federal law by requiring stricter equipment laws.
So the state has done nothing. It pretends they don't exist, and doesn't allow the federally defined version on the roads.
At least, that's the way it's been recently, and the state apparently has withdrawn them from the moped rules handbook.
--
Ed Huntress

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On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 00:26:32 -0400, Ed Huntress




To clarify, that is the way the *law* stands. As I said, the cops don't seem to care about the electric ones.
--
Ed Huntress

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Segways faced similar issues; they didn't fit any existing category. We tried to have them treated as pedestrians but were frustrated by cyclists demanding equal access to the sidewalk. http://ruina.tam.cornell.edu/www_ribs/bikesonsidewalks.html
http://www.segway.com/support/regulatory-information#content-area
The law also has to consider electric wheelchairs which have similar properties. Unlike a bicycle they have no difficulty stopping and starting and can match walking speeds.
Segways were banned in the Netherlands for a while because they have no brakes. They stop the same way your shoes do.
--jsw
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On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 10:00:41 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

We have one in town, ridden (is that the word?) by our meter maid. <g>
--
Ed Huntress

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"Glide" didn't catch on.
I tried an engineering loaner around here. The sides of the roads aren't fit for -anything- except snowbanks.
--jsw
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On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 10:36:35 -0400
<snip>

Maybe one of these?
http://www.cushmantrackster.com/home.html
Happen to see one for sale recently on Craigs List. Kind of cool until you start pricing replacement parts ;-)
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
  Click to see the full signature.
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wrote:

They'd still have to swerve into the travel lane where the ditch or embankment begins at the phone poles, or when forced in by guard rails. The problem is avoiding mindlessly wandering traffic, not physically traveling on the shoulder although the snow plows and frost do tear up the edges. ATVs of all types were very common around here until development filled the flats and began consuming the hilly land.
I've tried several ways to combine road and off-road capabilities. The most versatile was to carry an inflatable raft on a bicycle. Either can hold me and the other, and go over a chain link fence.
The longest ranged was a street-legal dirt bike with trials tires. It could handle winter snowmobile trails as long as I stayed on the packed area and I've walked it across the steeply sloping rock embankments under bridges while following streams. --jsw
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On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 11:31:21 -0400
<snip>

Well if you want all-purpose and got $$$$ to burn get a Rokon:
https://www.rokon.com/
They even float or you can use the hollow rims to store extra fuel. I thought they were the way to go until I priced one ;-)
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
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wrote:

Although they are a local NH company I've never seen one out on the trails, which are mostly in upland areas with firm rocky ground. We have to look to find boggy spots to include on dirt bike rally routes. Personally I tried not to leave any trace the next rain wouldn't erase.
As an illustration every time a friend called to ask for help getting unstuck I was able to drive almost to where he was in my car, and bring him and his valuables home so he could plead with someone whose truck was big enough to drag him out.
--jsw
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wrote

Are you telling me I didn't ride as fast as I could with one wheel bouncing along the railroad tie ends and the other down in the ballast?
--pnWx5t[c7
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On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 10:00:41 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Obviously electric wheelchairs fall into a completely different category. Service animals aren't considered pets, for similar reasons.

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On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:43:48 -0400, Ed Huntress

Mopeds also were designed at a 30 MPH limit (back then) as that was the limit in most states for non-licensed motorized bicycle type. vehicles.
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