OT- Something Fishy about Kerry's being a "Hero"

I have to read what he actually said, I don't know where this information is coming from. If it's from the usual sources, for example Rush "Anal Cyst" Limbaugh, I don't put much credence in it.

Boat patrol still isn't groud combat. At

There are different interpretations of that opportunity. The bin Laden family was under intense scrutiny until Bush was (s)elected. They are old friends and business associates of his family so he cut them some slack upon taking office.

Interesting. I've never heard about them. What are their names? I've seen a bit of documentary footage shot by the film crew that was on the scene, and I never did see anybody drinking coffee.

Who knows, maybe coffee drinking was too boring to film.

The guys going *up* the stairs in the building while everyone else was going down, they were just doing their job too. Heros, or no?

The folks who were helping the injured down the stairs when they could have run on by, heros or no?

What about the workers (just there doing their jobs) who realized that they were trapped on the upper floors, and would be incinerated shortly - so they jumped off the building. Heros, or no?

There were some who were in the second tower to fall, who had been told to stay in place by their management - but took it upon themselves to leave anyway, and convinced others to do likewise? Heros, or no?

There is a idea that sometimes being heroic is keeping your head on straight in a tough situation, and being rational about choosing the best, between a bunch of bad, options.

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

I just noticed you didn't deny your blatant and rabid bias or your panties being all wadded up either.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

There were a number of fire and police vehicles under the rubble, and at least one squad was squashed in or around their vehicles.

Yup. Or simply doing their job. Remember, no one knew the buildings would come down. They were simply on fire.

See above.

Id have to say this is a no. Did take guts however. So does performing a suicide bombing.

No. Smart, YES.

No..thats called common sense. Being a hero is putting yourself in harms way for the sake of others, in a situation that you KNOW may well kill you.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

Its quite true, and he is now weaseling. Do the google thing, its quite easy to find. IF you want to find your buddy has feet of clay.

And the bin Laudin family was never accused of being complicet in terrorism. In fact, they had disown him.

If Timothy McVeighs parents were escorted home after Timmy blew up the McMurrah Federal Building, then the cops were giving the family a pass?

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

So you simply ignored the umm, slight disparity in our posting histories, and continue with the same silly argument? Face it, anyone who compares what we each write can come to only one conclusion - that there might not be *anyone* as rabid as you, certainly not in this group at least. I bet you're thinkin'.... "sure, he may only post a fraction of the political stuff I do, but he's just as biased *per post*". See, you didn't even know how funny you are. :-) Have you considered that you're so numbed by reading right-wing crap that you've lost all idea of what's normal discussion and what's over the top? Whoever mentioned the springback analogy was on the right track, but he didn't go far enough... you're trying to bend something to a

10" diameter by using a 1" mandrel. Regardless, your failure to comprehend the main points in my previous post reminds me of someone looking at a dead car engine that he allowed to run out of oil, who by way of excuse blurts out "I told her she needed to wax that thing more often". :-)

Wayne

Right. Except for the footage that was shot in the second tower to come down - after the first one did. I suspect those guys had a pretty good idea.

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

Wayne, I comprehended your talking points, and disregarded them. Shrug. Your spin and bias is noted. I never deny mine. You seem unable to face yours. This is called a Charector Flaw. Do work on it.

Now, do you have something interesting to say, or do you wish to continue to bitch about off topic stuff, in an off topic fashion?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

See, that's a sign of how far out of touch you are. Nobody uses the phrase "talking points" except in a political context. Let's test how it would sound in an everyday situation -

wife: please get off your lazy ass and take out the garbage.

hubby: I comprehend your talking points, but must disregard them until I finish this beer.

Nope, sorry, you'd have to be pretty well stewed in political jargon to think that's normal conversation.

Ah, but by with your stategy of diversion you seem to be denying that you're the #1 political crap spreader in this group, and apparently you actually believe that anyone who tells you so is equally bad. That's past the point of feeble rationalization and well into pig-headed denial.

Apparently it's interesting to you, but I imagine you're one of very few reading it. I suppose I could write about my morning welding and turning, but it wouldn't be worth reading except to those who might be interested in the failure modes of a hydraulically operated roller on the back of a road grader.

Wayne

No. They were just doing their jobs. Dangerous jobs, but what they're trained and paid to do. Fighting high rise fires was part of their job description. Remember that they had no way of knowing the buildings were going to collapse while they were climbing those stairs. As far as they knew, it was just another day on the job.

Note, if they had known what was about to happen, and that climbing those stairs was only slowing the escape of victims down those stairways, they wouldn't be heros then either. They'd just be stupidly suicidal.

Good samaritans certainly, calling them heros would be stretching it because they didn't know the extent of the hazard at the time. To be heroic, you have to know that what you're doing is putting you at significantly higher risk than is required of you by circumstance.

*No one* expected the buildings to collapse the way they did. It was an *unprecedented* situation.

Definitely not. Nor were the office workers there just doing their jobs who didn't jump. Neither group were heros, both were victims.

Heros no, smart yes.

A hero is someone who deliberately puts himself at added known risk, well above and beyond the call of duty, to accomplish some worthy goal.

Just doing something dangerous when you don't know how dangerous it is, doesn't qualify. Just doing something dangerous because it is dangerous doesn't qualify either. Heroes are marked by courage, nobility of purpose, and special achievement in the face of danger and death.

All heroes have some quest or mission to accomplish. It is this focused command of self which makes the hero so fascinating. The hero is in unquestioned command of himself, the conflict between conscious purpose and the unconscious desire to flee gibbering into the night has been won. That is why we identify with heros, our self-image and sense of autonomy are strengthened by their example.

Were there *some* heros at the Twin Towers on September

11th? Almost certainly. Were most of the victims who have been called heros by smarmy politicians and pious posturers actually heros? Almost certainly not. I strongly agree with Greg that overuse of the term "hero" cheapens its meaning to the point of meaninglessness.

Gary

Well said, Gary. Too much hero-worship of non heroes these days. And too much phony exploitation of events of convenience in many cases.

michael

I thought this was politically based. If we had just been shooting the bull, Id have said you were full of shit. Shrug.

Hint..I frankly dont care. Work up a filter on the terms OT..and be down with it. But you really need to take on the bad ol conservative, and try to put me in my place...snicker..bring a lunch.

SO Wayne..care to tally all the posts you have made on the subject so far? Seems you really like to post OT as well, particularly when you got your lil liberal feelings hurt by the bad ol conservative. Right?

Laugh laugh laugh

Geeze Wayne..I might have to kill file you for posting off topic.

Snicker

Gunner "To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

He's not my buddy, I don't particularly like him. AFA the Google search, I found some disturbing stuff regarding his testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, I haven't seen anything yet reporting that he encouraged desertion or disobedience. His association with Fonda was before she went to Hanoi.

Officially, anyway

This defintion seems to be at some odds with the common statement "but not if they're just doing their job" that has passed by in the thread.

Firefighters and rescue crews place themselves at added known risk to do their jobs, every day. So does this mean they are heros, every day?

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

Depends on how they perform their job. If they run into a burning building to save someone, indeed. If they are pulling a corpse out of a car wreck..hardly.

Farmers could be considered the real heros..as they have a hell of a lot higher death and injury rate than cops or fire fighters.

Shrug.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

Odd..when I post stuff from the Guardian, it gets blown off as bullshit from a rag only fit for the bottom of a bird cage.

I wish folks would make up their minds. Shrug.

I think time will tell on this matter. But if there had been any substance of note...the Left would have been all over this like stink on shit. It has been three years, and this has been passed around more than once or twice on the net.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

Now we're talkin'. You start the rightwingnut threads, I'll make fun of your posts.

As I've said previously (and I don't believe for a second that you missed it), I don't mind OT or most political discussion. I've posted OT plenty of times. For the most part I don't bother to respond to conservative opinions. Certainly I could never keep up with your volume much less others. But there's a difference between opinion and propaganda even if you've lost sight of it. As I said before, I'm here for you, so crank up your posting machine, use phrases like "talking points" as much as possible, and I'll do my best to find time to swing at the easy pitches. :-)

Wayne

So then, the firefighters who were entering the second tower to come down, or did not leave it, after they knew the first one had collapsed, would qualify?

Ah but they don't go into burning cornfields.

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

Do they? Or are they just responding to the call of duty? I'd say it is the latter.

It is well to remember that the occupations of firefighter and cop are *way* down on the list of most dangerous professions. When a cop or firefighter gets killed in the line of duty, it is front page headlines, and a funeral procession that shuts down the town, because it is so unusual. Meanwhile, when a farmer gets mangled by a combine, ho, hum, page 8.

Gary