OT- Something Fishy about Kerry's being a "Hero"

I would tend to say yes, there is a strong component of heroism there. He's doing that so that other soldiers can achieve their objectives while he does his job.

Jim

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'twere ever thus in politics, Gunner. For instance, Osama bin Laden was the bee's knees when the CIA trained him and the rest of the Mujahedeen, so that they could fight a proxy war for the USA against the Soviet Union, in Afghanistan -- in the process destroying the country, and turning it into the sort of failed state that terrorism is born of. Later, we might say that he's not quite so popular in the USA. Likewise, Saddam Hussein was a great guy when Donald Rumsfeld was coordinating the supply of American chemical weapons to Iraq, so that he could use them against Iranians. Then, of course, he quickly became a monster when he turned on Kuwait. After that, when the American leaders suddenly realized that the help they were giving Iraqi rebels, and Kurds, in their fight against Saddam was working too well, and there was a real danger that the Kurds would manage to carve out their own bit of Iraq, the USA switched sides again, and thus let Saddam use those chemical weapons against his own people, and against the Kurds. Things certainly do change, and fast.

-tih

I think you attribute far more power & control than exists :o). Greg Sefton

The region was a s*it hole before the Russian war, and it simply returned to it after the Russians went home. I take it your grasp of history of that region os pretty small? Do the research. Search as far back as the British occupation (or attempted occupation of that region

The Coming Afghan Campaign

"When you're wounded and left,

On Afghanistan's plains,

And the women come out,

To cut up your remains,

Just roll on your rifle,

And blow out your brains,

And go to your Gawd,

Like a soldier."

--Rudyard Kipling

We never supplied war spit, but we allowed others to do so. And when he used it indiscrimatly..he quickly became out of favor. Over night.

Geopolitical history is not your strong suite....

No s*it?

Ah no. Thats when Saddam got in big s*it with us.

Indeed they do. The idea of splitting Iraq into three seperate nations is not been put away completely yet. And it might indeed be a good idea if it were done.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

You may be right, as far as chemical weapons go. The material that is officially documented as having been supplied, and that Rumsfeld had to get Iraq off the official "terrorist sponsoring state" list to get export licences for, classifies as biological weapons -- e.g. anthrax. The materials for chemical weapons was purchased elsewhere, with, as you say, American permission, and paid for with American aid money.

Then why did the USA suddenly stand aside and let Saddam massacre the uprising to overthrow him -- an uprising that they had first encouraged?

Looks that way to me, too. However, this is for your administration to decide: what will be done is what is deemed best for the USA. It will certainly be interesting to observe.

There's lots of interesting reading material about these topics on Noam Chomsky's web site. For instance, an interview about the USA and the Middle East at .

-tih

You're not seriously claiming that *that* was what would have served American interests best, in the long run?

Hey, he may have opinions you don't like, but unlike a lot of the people you like to post quotes from here, Chomsky is a serious thinker who understands the problems he discusses, and never presents anything as factual without evidence to back it up.

-tih

Of course it would have best served our interests. One of the largest sources of oil in the world, all ours for the taking. If we has simply sold the oil, after taking out expenses, we could have reduced the national debt to nothing, funded every school, paid for national health care, etc.

Chomsky is a odious clown with a marvelous ability to spin, weasel and use data to fit his agenda, rather than fit his agenda to the data.

He has a certain following. As did Marx, Lenin and Mao.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

Out of curiosity, Tom, how is Chomsky regarded in your part of the world?

Ed Huntress

Even considering that you'd have started a process that would have to eventually make every country in the world your enemy? May I quote from your current .signature: "To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem."

I'd say this statement expresses only that you are aware that Chomsky does not share your right wing political standpoint.

-tih

This is the most succinct and insightful description of what a *real* hero is that I have ever heard. Well said, Gary.

Steve M

You must know a different Noam Chomsky than the socialist, America-hater that I know.

He is highly respected, especially among academics and intellectuals. I can't, off-hand, recall ever reading or hearing a negative comment: those who know of him tend to regard him as a valuable authority. His books, starting with "Necessary Illusions" and "Manufacturing Consent", are often recommended as almost required reading for anyone wanting to understand the interplay between politicians, media and business.

-tih

Rather, I don't have your blind spot. In the USA, "socialist" is a horrid, derogatory term. Over here, socialism is just a political theory. In fact, my country, Norway, is a socialist country, as is England, which I believe is rather highly regarded in the USA.

Calling Chomsky an "America-hater" shows up another blind spot: it seems that criticizing the administration is more or less forbidden in the USA. Over here, it's regarded as part of the healthy interplay of politics. It seems to me that most Americans are unable to even consider Chomsky's opinions, being blinded by his harsh criticism of American foreign policy. If you read Chomsky, you'll see that his theories of media and politics predict this very effect: his views are outside the acceptable range for public debate.

Incidentally, by your lights, "socialist America-hater" would be a pretty good description of the majority of Europeans these days. ;-)

-tih

Indeed. And your point is? Sometimes we have to do things that are not in our best interest.

Id have to say that you defend Chomsky because he shares your leftwing political standpoint. Not because he is right or wrong, but because he is a Lefty like you.

Sounds like a Mexican Standoff to me.

Gunner

The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long

"He is highly respected, especially among academics and intellectuals. I can't, off-hand, recall ever reading or hearing a negative comment: those who know of him tend to regard him as a valuable authority. His books, starting with "Necessary Illusions" and "Manufacturing Consent", are often recommended as almost required reading for anyone wanting to understand the interplay between politicians, media and business."

And these are the people we are supposed to consider our allies?

Speaks volumes that they respect Chomsky.

Gunner

The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long

Actually, I regard myself as a right-leaning libertarian, and Chomsky as far off to my left, politically. I nevertheless respect him highly.

If, by that, you mean we'll have to agree to disagree, I'm OK with that -- and although you tend to slip into right-extremist rant mode now and then, you're always a welcome addition to any political discussion. This is the only news group I've found, where political exchanges between people of very different convictions *don't* degenerate into mud-slinging, and I appreciate that very much.

-tih

Good. :-) And if the American administration caught on, they might even consider using more diplomacy and less strong-arm tactics in their dealings with the rest of the world. This would improve the international respect for the USA, which is in serious decline.

Oh, and before you accuse me of anti-Americanism: I've lived in the USA, I love the country and the people, I tend to be the one who defends you in discussions with friends and colleagues, and it pains me that I can no longer visit your country -- which I will no longer do, now that I have to submit to being treated like a criminal in order to gain entry.

-tih

Ill have to remind someone the next time National Socialism raises its ugly little head in Europe. Btw...where is Victor Quisling buried?

Treated like a criminal to enter the US? How so? And when you are in the US, does the hotel keeper have to hold on to your passport?

Gunner

The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long

Are you trying to invoke Godwin's law, Gunner?

By being photographed, fingerprinted, and interrogated by security staff.

-tih