OT Wasted lives

How does that compare to the 'Christian' attacks on Muslims in Bosnia in the 1990s, in Iraq since 2003 , and Iran during the Reagan years?

If you start counting after WWII, 'Christians' are WAY ahead on the body count. Maybe we need to focus more closely on the individuals, organizations and nations that are responsible.

There is a reason why, see below.

We did not respond to the attack at Pearl Harbor and the German and Italian declarations of War by invading the Soviet Union or China. We actually fought back against the enemies that attacked us.

No, we all but quit fighting the "war on terror" when we invaded and occupied Iraq.

The first Mosque in Damascus was a Christian church rented to the Muslims for their services. When Saladin drove the Catholics out of Jerusalem he allowed the Jews and orthodox Christians to remain.

Not every Muslim ruler was as wise, tollerent or beneficent but such qualities throughout history are observed to be independent of the ruler's professed religion.

During certain times Protestantism offered a similar deal in Europe, though as often the Catholics made a counter offer that was not lightly to be refused.

That is totally false. Wahhabis are Sunni. The Shia are the Wahhabis worse enemies within Islam.

What a crock. The Shah of Iran came into power via an American supported coup under Eisenhower that replaced the Republican Iranian government.

Let's not forget that the first and last Democratic government of Pakistan halted the Pakistani nuclear weapons program. It was resumed after the coup that put Musharraf into power.

Splorf! Yes, let's throw in some UN-phobic propaganda too.

So why was that effort put on hold, allowing al Queda and the Talleban to survive and regroup?

IOW there wasn't any evidence that he was. Compare that to Saudi Arabia, Iran, or the Gulf States.

UH, attacking the Israelis and others in Israel.

And I am quite sure that the Kurds would have been tickled pick to have us build a nice big military base right smack in the middle of Iraqi Kurdistan. Heck, I bet they still would. Contrast that, if you will, to just how welcome we are in the rest of Iraq.

He's not running for office in November.

Which is one more reason why it was so stupid and irresponsible to back off from fighting them and fight Iraq instead.

Yeah, pinko Muslims....

I think that is a major exaggeration.

No, just Iraq and Afghanistan. He hasn't expressed any support f or Democracy in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, the Sudan, Egypt, or Libya.

That is why I gave a range of numbers, and said to pick your percentage. What percentage of the world's 1 billion muslims do you think are proponents of violence?

Carl

Christian attacks in Bosnia were a response to what the Muslims started.

Tell you what, get documented numbers on Christian attocities. When you get to 250,000 that the Muslims have killed in Darfur I'll look further.

The current enemy is not limited to constrained to or representitives of a given country. Hasn't Osama Bin Laden urged all Muslims to fight the americans in Iraq. Didn't Spain and England suffer terrorists attachs because of their involvement in the Iraq campain.

There is quit obviously terror in Iraq, and we are fighting it. President Bush stated we would fight all terror. Ex Iraqi president Saddam Hussein was promoting terror in Israel by offering $25,000 rewards to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. You might, or might not, be able to make a valid case that there is a better place or method to fight the terrorists, but to say we "quit fighting the "war on terror" when we invaded and occupied Iraq" is untrue.

Carl

A man and a rifle is surgical, Artillery, or airborne artillery is not capable of "surgical". You should know that.

So in your twisted world the Weaver Family and the Davidian kids got what they deserved. If they were what you think of as 'normal' they'd have killed their father/leaders before they got themselves killed by overzealous use of firepower. Sad. I thought better of you.

I note that you still can't tell me what "winning" this fiasco will look like...

Yes, they declared Bosnia/Herzogovinia to be autonomous and self-governing. The Serbs responded with death camps and rape brothels.

If you want to include Muslims killing Muslims then you need to include the Iran-Iraq war and the massacres in Rwanda.

Of course if you are going to count up non-Muslims killing non Muslims don't forget to include Cambodia, the Vietnam War, the Korean War, the Argentinian 'dirty war'. the various wars other revolutions throughout Central and South America and so on. And of course starting the counting post-WWII is arbitrary.

Last I heard, yes he did. Last I heard, the Baathists, the Sunni insurgents and the Shia don't give a rat's ass what bin Laden says. They're doing the bulk of the fighting.

Not until after they invaded Iraq.

And yet he quit fighting the very people who attacked us, and then instead of turning our sights on others like them, like Hezbollah and Hamas, he invaded Iraq.

I might. Saddam Husein may have been the most vocal supporter of the clandestine paramilitary attacks on Israel but his support was minor compared to Iranian support of Hezbollah. The obvious target after al Queda was Hezbollah.

The invasion of Iraq did have a positive effect by cutting off Iraqi support for Hamas, pushing them toward a much less militant (and more productive) approach. It may also have influenced Kadaffi to make peace with the US. It also had enormous negative consequences that leave us unable to take on Hezbollah and have made it all that much harder to finish off al Queda which should have been our priority.

Bin Laden attacked us and killed three thousand people on our soil. He proved that someone can do that and get away with it. Instead of killing him, we went and killed a bunch of other Muslims in some other country that had nothing to do with it. GW Bush has validated bin Laden's strategy.

Actually..modern arty and airborne (Spooky) IS quite surgical. YouTube is filled with examples. Im surprised you are not aware of this.

Using an Arc-Lite to remove a sniper, or even an HQ is the opposite of :surgical. Blasting a sniper out of a 3r floor apartment with a Bradley or a 81mm Is quite surgical. When the IP is now measured in single digit feet...

The Weavers and Davidians were using who as human shields?

Off your meds?

Remember Japan in 1945 after they signed that piece of paper on the big boat?

Gunner

"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western civilization as it commits suicide"

- James Burnham

I don't want to defend Saddam, but he paid the $25,000 to the families who lost their homes to Israeli bulldozers, that's not quite the same thing. Committees of Correspondence Web page:- tinyurl.com/y7th2c

He also paid $25k to the familes of suicide bombers.

Gunner

"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western civilization as it commits suicide"

- James Burnham

...

Their children--more or less. It would be more accurate to describe the children as innocent bystanders at first, though in the case of the BDs the children were effectively hostages later, and certainly hapless pawns to both sides in the standoff.

...

Whom would the signatories be this time?

That was widely reported. The previous statement less so.

Makes one wonder about confabulation.

message

Iggy!!!!!!!!

Do you want me to take your word about what Osama want over Osama's word about what Osama wants?

I make a statement that Osama want the USA to convert to Islam. You justifiably ask for substantiation, I give you a reference, from a news source that most would consider reasonably trustworthy, you say you need to read the web sight and the book, and then without presenting any obvious objective reasons, say you don't believe it. This is really rather disingenuous. Check it out all you want.

Actually..anyone who wanted to leave, could. Though at the end..the military was machine gunning those running from the burning building..but that was hardly Koresh's doing.

Good question! Obviously its not all those terrorists your ilk claims should be accorded GC protections. They dont have a government.

Gunner

"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western civilization as it commits suicide"

- James Burnham

Sometimes a cigar is simply a cigar.

Gunner

"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western civilization as it commits suicide"

- James Burnham

Dont confuse Iggy with the facts, when his mind is already made up.

It only confuses him.

Gunner

"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western civilization as it commits suicide"

- James Burnham

I don't agree that the children were free to leave.

I don't even know if Howell would have allowed any of the adults to leave.

I also have never, before now, heard any claims that the military fired a single shot on the day the building burned down, let alone machine gunning those running from it. Assuming you were not an eye witness, where did you hear THAT.

So why the reference to the Missouri?

And now we are back to the question, OP posed "what will 'winning' this fiasco will look like..."

Study the subject more. A number of people left. In fact..they were the sole survivors. Most are still in jail.

Blink blink...now I know you are blowing smoke on the subject...the FLIR photos taken during this time have been the subject of some serious controversy over the years...leading to the deaths of a number of investigators....

Hell..simply google "waco flir"

There there are the reports that Delta Force were involved in the final seige...

September 10, 1999

An elite U.S. military unit may have been responsible for the placement of special explosives within the Branch Davidian church at Mount Carmel, near Waco, Tex., during an FBI-directed attack on the religious community on April 19, 1993, according to a study by the Texas Rangers.

A 13-page report by Texas law enforcement, dated Sept. 10, reveals that "a 'shaped charge,' may have been placed on the concrete roof of the 'bunker' at the bottom of the tower, and that a bedroll found in the 'bunker,' which was not totally consumed by the fire, may contain trace elements of the explosive compound..................

Barry, who has provided expert sworn depositions for attorneys representing survivors of the Branch Davidians in a wrongful death suit being brought against the government in federal court in Texas, has pieced together the destruction of the "bunker."

"Those who have seen video tapes of the attack have witnessed a combat engineer vehicle (CEV), which utilizes the chassis of a M-60A2 heavy tank, ramming its way through a wooden wall in the vicinity of the bunker and continuing on directly into the building," Barry said.

There it remained for sufficient time for a Delta Force unit to emerge and place the shaped charge on the "bunker" roof, according to Barry.

As the tank exited the building there were two distinct explosions, one from the shaped charge and the other from the subsequent detonation of the propane tank.

Barry said videos taken inside the "bunker" reveal that the bodies of the Branch Davidians there "were totally pulverized, which is consistent with what a shaped charge, so placed, would do."

Photos

Come back after you know more than the media gave you and we can discuss the issues.

Gunner

"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western civilization as it commits suicide"

- James Burnham