OT Wasted lives

wrote:


muslims to

That is why I gave a range of numbers, and said to pick your percentage. What percentage of the world's 1 billion muslims do you think are proponents of violence?
Carl

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How does that compare to the 'Christian' attacks on Muslims in Bosnia in the 1990s, in Iraq since 2003 , and Iran during the Reagan years?
If you start counting after WWII, 'Christians' are WAY ahead on the body count. Maybe we need to focus more closely on the individuals, organizations and nations that are responsible.

There is a reason why, see below.

We did not respond to the attack at Pearl Harbor and the German and Italian declarations of War by invading the Soviet Union or China. We actually fought back against the enemies that attacked us.

No, we all but quit fighting the "war on terror" when we invaded and occupied Iraq.
--
FF



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other
Christian attacks in Bosnia were a response to what the Muslims started.

Tell you what, get documented numbers on Christian attocities. When you get to 250,000 that the Muslims have killed in Darfur I'll look further.

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The current enemy is not limited to constrained to or representitives of a given country. Hasn't Osama Bin Laden urged all Muslims to fight the americans in Iraq. Didn't Spain and England suffer terrorists attachs because of their involvement in the Iraq campain.

Then
There is quit obviously terror in Iraq, and we are fighting it. President Bush stated we would fight all terror. Ex Iraqi president Saddam Hussein was promoting terror in Israel by offering $25,000 rewards to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. You might, or might not, be able to make a valid case that there is a better place or method to fight the terrorists, but to say we "quit fighting the "war on terror" when we invaded and occupied Iraq" is untrue.
Carl

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Yes, they declared Bosnia/Herzogovinia to be autonomous and self-governing. The Serbs responded with death camps and rape brothels.

Oh, I thought you were refering to Muslims killing non-Muslims when you wrote:
" Islam (or at least the terroristic portion of Islam) has declared war on the United States, Western civilization, and all other religions. Examples are 9/11, the 1st world trade center bombing, Lockerbie Scotland, USS Cole, Bombings in Spain, London, Indonesia, "
If you want to include Muslims killing Muslims then you need to include the Iran-Iraq war and the massacres in Rwanda.
Of course if you are going to count up non-Muslims killing non Muslims don't forget to include Cambodia, the Vietnam War, the Korean War, the Argentinian 'dirty war'. the various wars other revolutions throughout Central and South America and so on. And of course starting the counting post-WWII is arbitrary.

Last I heard, yes he did. Last I heard, the Baathists, the Sunni insurgents and the Shia don't give a rat's ass what bin Laden says. They're doing the bulk of the fighting.

Not until after they invaded Iraq.

And yet he quit fighting the very people who attacked us, and then instead of turning our sights on others like them, like Hezbollah and Hamas, he invaded Iraq.

I might. Saddam Husein may have been the most vocal supporter of the clandestine paramilitary attacks on Israel but his support was minor compared to Iranian support of Hezbollah. The obvious target after al Queda was Hezbollah.
The invasion of Iraq did have a positive effect by cutting off Iraqi support for Hamas, pushing them toward a much less militant (and more productive) approach. It may also have influenced Kadaffi to make peace with the US. It also had enormous negative consequences that leave us unable to take on Hezbollah and have made it all that much harder to finish off al Queda which should have been our priority.
Bin Laden attacked us and killed three thousand people on our soil. He proved that someone can do that and get away with it. Instead of killing him, we went and killed a bunch of other Muslims in some other country that had nothing to do with it. GW Bush has validated bin Laden's strategy.
--
FF


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I don't want to defend Saddam, but he paid the $25,000 to the families who lost their homes to Israeli bulldozers, that's not quite the same thing. Committees of Correspondence Web page:- tinyurl.com/y7th2c
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He also paid $25k to the familes of suicide bombers.
Gunner
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western civilization as it commits suicide" - James Burnham
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That was widely reported. The previous statement less so.
Makes one wonder about confabulation.
--
FF


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On 6 Mar 2007 13:10:02 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@spamcop.net wrote:

Sometimes a cigar is simply a cigar.
Gunner
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western civilization as it commits suicide" - James Burnham
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This is false. Radical Islamists have the following goals
1) Widhdrawal of US and foreign troops from Muslim lands 2) Removal of unpopular, undemocratic governments and replacing them with even less democratic Sharia based governing system 3) Elimination of Israel.
I have not seen, anywhere, their leaders calling for such things as destruction of non-Muslim religions outside of Muslim areas.

We really do not have much of a choice, as continuing this unwinnable fight (in Iraq) is beyond our capability as a society or economy.

We have another choice, which is apologize, pay reparations, and continue our presence where we are still welcomed, and trying to influence events by means of money and politics. (which worked just fine to contain Saddam).

You will find a great quantity of them in any country that we'd invade.

No.

Another nonsensical analogy.
i
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On Fri, 02 Mar 2007 21:02:09 -0600, Ignoramus16069

Google Grand Caliphate.
Thats all you need to do to find out your a bit ah...less than well informed on the subject.
Gunner
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western civilization as it commits suicide" - James Burnham
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On Fri, 02 Mar 2007 21:02:09 -0600, Ignoramus16069

Nonesensical only if you are blindly biased. Pretty clear to the rest of us.
Gunner
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western civilization as it commits suicide" - James Burnham
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wrote:

Osama has said in at least one of his recorded messages from his hidey hole that the USA must "convert to Islam"

I don't believe it is unwinnable, but it may not be winnable in our lifetime. And I know it is not beyond the capability of our economy. And I hope it is not beyond out capability as a society.

This is my second choice.

Yes.

If you disagree with point 1 yes. If you believe the "war on terror" is an ideological clash it is a very valid analogy

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wrote:

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/warwithoutborders/salafist.html http://www.azadeganiran.com/IranTurkey.asp
             THE CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS AND THE GREAT CALIPHATE By Larry Abraham
It Did Not Start on 9/11
The war we are now facing did not begin on September 11, 2001, nor will it end with the peaceful transition to civilian authorities in Iraq, whenever that may be. In fact, Iraq is but a footnote in the bigger context of this encounter, but an important one none the less.
This war is what the Jihadists themselves are calling the Third Great Jihad and are doing so within the framework of a time line which reaches back to the very creation of Islam in the Seventh century and their attempts to recreate the dynamics which gave rise to the religion in the first two hundred years of its existence.
No religion in history grew as fast, in its infancy, than did Islam and the reasons for this growth are not hard to explain when you understand what the world was like at the time of Muhammads death in 632 AD. The Western Roman Empire was in ruins and the Eastern Empire was based in Constantinople and trying desperately to keep the power of its early grandeur while transitioning to Christianity as a de facto state religion. The costs to the average person were unbearable as he was being required to meet the constantly rising taxes levied from the state along with the tithes coerced by the Church. What Islam offered was the carrot or the sword.
If you became a convert, your taxes were immediately eliminated, as was your tithe. If you didnt, you faced death. The choice was not hard for most to make, unless you were a very devoted martyr in the making. At the beginning, even the theology was not too hard for most to swallow, considering that both Jewry and Christianity were given their due by the Prophet. There is but one God-Allah, and Muhammad is His Prophet, as was Jesus, and the pre-Christian Jewish prophets of the Torah (old testament). Both were called children of the book, the book being the Koran, which replaced both the Old and New testaments for Christians and Jews.
With this practical approach to spreading the word Islam grew like wild fire, reaching out from the Saudi Arabian Peninsula in all directions. This early growth is what the Muslims call the first great Jihad and it met with little resistance until Charles Martel of France, the father of Charlemagne, stopped them in the battle of Tours in France, after they had firmly established the religion on the Iberian peninsula. This first onslaught against the West continued in various forms and at various times until Islam was finally driven out of Spain in 1492 at the battle of Granada.
The second great jihad came with the Ottoman Turks. This empire succeeded in bringing about the downfall of Constantinople as a Christian stronghold and an end to Roman hegemony in all of its forms. The Ottoman Empire was Islams most successful expansion of territory even though the religion itself had fractured into warring sects and bitter rivalries with each claiming the ultimate truths in the ways of the Prophet. By 1683 the Ottomans had suffered a series of defeats on both land and sea and the final and failed attempt to capture Vienna set the stage for the collapse of any further territorial ambitions and Islam shrunk into various sheikhdoms, emir dominated principalities, and roving tribes of nomads. However, by this time a growing anti-western sentiment, blaming its internal failures on anyone but themselves, was taking hold and setting the stage for a new revival know has Wahhabism which came into full bloom under the House of Saud on the Arabian peninsula shortly before the onset of WWI. It is this Wahhabi version of Islam which has infected the religion itself, now finding adherents in almost all branches and sects, especially the Shiites. What this sect calls for is the complete and total rejection of anything and everything which is not based in the original teachings of The Prophet and it finds its most glaring practice in the policies of the Afgani Taliban or the Shiite practices of the late Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran. Its Ali Pasha (Field Marshall) is now known as Osama bin Laden, the leader of the third Jihad.
Jimmy Carter sets the stage
The strategy for this holy war did not begin with the planning of the destruction of the World Trade Center. It began with the plans for toppling the Shah of Iran back in the early 1970s and culminated with his exile in 1979. With his plans and programs to westernize his country, along with his close ties to the U.S. and subdued acceptance of the State of Israel, the Shah was the soft target.
Thanks, in large part to the hypocritical and disastrous policies of the Jimmy Carter State Department the revolution was set into motion, the Shah was deposed, his arm forces scattered or murdered and stage one was complete. The Third Jihad now had a base of operations and the oil wealth to support its grand design or what they call the Great Caliphate.
The Great Caliphate
What this design calls for is the replacement of all secular leadership in any country with Muslim majorities. This would include, Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan, Indonesia, all the Emirates, Sudan, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and finally what they call the occupied territory Israel.
As a part of this strategy, forces of the jihad will infiltrate governments and the military as a prelude to taking control, once the secular leadership is ousted or assassinated. Such was the case in Lebanon leading to the Syrian occupation and what was attempted in Egypt with the murder of Anwar Sadat, along with the multiple attempts on the lives of Hussein in Jordan, Mubarak of Egypt and Musharraf in Pakistan. Pakistan is a particular prize because of its nuclear weapons.
The long-range strategy of the Third Jihad counts on three strategic goals. 1. The U.S. withdrawing from the region just as it did in Southeast Asia, following Vietnam. 2. Taking control of the oil wealth in the Muslim countries, which would be upwards to 75% of known reserves, and 3. Using nuclear weapons or other WMDs to annihilate Israel. A further outcome of successfully achieving these objectives would be to place the United Nations as the sole arbiter in East/West negotiations. Evidence of the Bush Administration awareness of this plan is found in the facts that immediately following the 9/11 attack, their first move was to shore up Pakistan and Egypt, believing that these two would be the next targets for al Qaeda while Americans focused on the disaster in New York. The administration also knew that the most important objective was to send a loud and clear message that the U.S. was in the region to stay, not only to shore up our allies but to send a message to the Jihadists. The attack on Afghanistan was necessary to break-up a secure al Qaeda base of operations and put their leadership on the run or in prison.
Why Iraq?
The war on Iraq also met a very strategic necessity in that no one knew how much collaboration existed between Saddam Hussein and the master planners of the Third Jihad or his willingness to hand off WMDs to terrorist groups including the PLO in Israel. What was known, were serious indications of on-going collaboration, as Saddam funneled money to families of suicide bombers attacking the Israelis and others in Kuwait.
What the U.S. needed to establish was a significant base of operations smack dab in the middle of the Islamic world, in a location which effectively cut it in half. Iraq was the ideal target for this and a host of other strategic reasons.
Leadership of various anti-American groups both here and abroad understood the vital nature of the Bush initiative and thus launched their demonstrations, world-wide, to Stop The War. Failing this, they also laid plans to build a political campaign inside the country, with the War in Iraq as a plebiscite, using a little know politician as the thrust point; Howard Dean. This helps to explain how quickly the Radical Left moved into the Dean campaign with both people and money, creating what the clueless media called the Dean Phenomenon.
By building on the left-wing base in the Democrat party and the Hate Bush liberals, the campaign has already resulted in a consensus among the aspirants, minus Joe Lieberman, to withdraw the U.S. from Iraq and turn the operation over to the U.N. And, if past is prologue, i.e. Vietnam, once the U.S. leaves it will not go back under any circumstances, possibly even the destruction of Israel.
Should George W. Bush be defeated in November and a new administration come to power we could expect to see the dominoes start to fall in the secular Islamic countries and The Clash of Civilizations would then become a life changing event in all of our lives.
What surprised the Jihadists following the 9/11 attack was how American sentiment mobilized around the president and a profound sense of patriotism spread across the country They were not expecting this reaction, based on what had happened in the past, nor were they expecting the determined resolve of the President himself. I believe that this is one of the reasons we have not had any further attacks within our borders. They are content to wait, just as one of their tactical mentors, V.I. Lenin admonishedtwo steps forward, one step back.
A couple of additional events serve as valuable footnotes to the current circumstances we face: the destruction of the human assets factor of the CIA during the Carter presidency, presided over by the late Senator Frank Church and Carters CIA Director, Admiral Stansfield Turner. This fact has plagued our intelligence agencies right up to this very day with consequences which are now obvious. Jimmy Carter is the one man who must bear the bulk of the responsibility for setting the stage of the Third Jihad. Americans should find little comfort in how the Democrat contenders constantly seek the advice and counsel of this despicable little hypocrite who now prances around with his Nobel Prize, while attacking President Bush with almost as much venom as his fellow Nobel Laureate, Yassir Arafat.
Lastly, we should not expect to see any meaningful cooperation from Western Europe, especially the French. Since failing to protect their own interests in Algeria by turning the country over to the first of the Arab terrorists, Amid Ben Bella, the country itself is now occupied by Islamic immigrants totally twenty percent of the population.
We are in the battle of our lives which will go on for many years possibly even generations. If we fail to understand what we are facing or falter in the challenge of knowing our enemy the results will be catastrophic.
PART II (May 1, 2004)
Since writing the above, we have witnessed some frightening evidence in support of our hypothesis both internally and in other parts of the world.
The al Qaeda bombing in Madrid has emboldened our enemy into believing it can use terror as an instrument for democratic regime change. Based on what happened there, they may be right.
Kerry and bin Laden on the same page
John Kerry and other leaders of his party constantly refer to the United States as acting unilaterally. They give no credit whatsoever to countries like Great Britain, Poland, Italy, Australia or even tiny Honduras for putting their limited armed forces in harms way to support the U.S. led coalition in Iraq. It is little wonder that some are considering doing what Spain has donepulling out. The leaders in these countries have spent considerable political capital in this effort, and have little to show for it as it relates to fostering good will with the American public. Couple that fact with Osama bin Ladins latest offer of withholding attacks on those who quit the coalition and you have all the elements for a Democrat party fostered self-fulfilling prophecy where the U.S. will be totally alone in the pacification of Iraq. John Kerry and the Bush critics persist in the lie of the U.S. going it alone in Iraq but Osama bin Laden knows differently and will use the Kerry rhetoric to help isolate the U.S. The terrorists now see themselves as political king-makers. They may be right.
Another aspect of the anti-Bush political axis is how both his political enemies and the main stream media take ghoulish delight in the body count, just as they did in the later days of Vietnam. Oh sure, they pay incidental homage to the memory of the young Americans who gave their lives in the greatest threat this country has ever faced, but they do so with all the sincerity of Madonna making a vow of chastity. As the body bags grow in number, they believe, so grows their political prospects. They may be right.
If the Bush administration is further weakened in the months leading up to the November elections, we will witness a heightened al Qaeda offensive in all parts of the world, including our own country, and especially in Iraq and nations surrounding it ,i.e., Pakistan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Events within the past few days in Jordan not only make this argument but also point to the possibility of what happened to the WMDs. Iran and Syria are daily growing more overt and bold in their support of insurgents within Iraq, believing that Bush has been so hurt by internal politics that he is powerless to act against them in any meaningful way. They may be right.
The Leftwing initiative, Political Correctness and Our Will to Win
Within our own country we are witnessing and almost insane application of political correctness. As the barbarism of radical Islam grows more apparent in the streets of the Middle East from Gaza to Basra, we see a cultural suicide taking place within our own schools and communities.
Our children are being taught from the Koran, our professors are preaching intifadah in their class rooms, and Muslim call to prayer loud speakers are blaring out from city halls. The more precarious our very existence becomes, the more our liberal brethren embrace their enemies. It is a Stockholm Syndrome which can only lead to the recruitment of young Muslims who will be willing to duplicate in the West what their co-religionists are doing in the streets of Israel and the market places of Baghdad. The liberal P.C. crowd say nothing about the silence of the Muslim religious leadership as it relates to the carnage of innocents but couldnt speak out fast enough against the inspiration supplied to tens of millions of Christians by Mel Gibsons The Passion of the Christ. They were put off by the movies violence and its alleged fostering of anti-Semitism. Movies must represent their reality as the real thing moves them not at all. Among liberal Jews in America, hatred of George W. Bush is only surpassed by their contempt for Ariel SharonLet them explain it, I am at a total loss to do so. Maybe they just miss seeing Bill Clinton smooching Yassir Arafat in the White House Rose Garden.
The Reverend Jesse Jackson is now calling the U.S. guilty of crimes against humanity as he sets out to mobilize the non-Islamic Left. None of the Democrat leadership says a word in opposition to Jacksons treason or Hillarys attacks on the President and U.S. policy in an Arabic newspaper, while in London. You can bet that al Jezeera didnt miss a beat in their reporting of both events.
The campaign takes its toll
The campaign is seriously hurting Mr. Bushs leadership role in the War on Terror. While ducking every new book critical of his initiative or trying to counter the partisan nitpicking of the 9/11 Commission, he has persisted in the misbegotten insistence of installing democracy in Iraq. Our purpose for being in that beleaguered country should be restricted to one purpose and one purpose only, to stop the expansion of The Third Jihad and provide a base for doing same in the neighboring areas. This can be done by sealing the borders, attacking anything that moves in violation of same and by making it clear to Syria and Iran that any participation on their part will be considered an act of war. Let the country be governed by the local tribes, Shiite in the south, Sunni in the central and Kurds in the north with a U.S. pro consul overseeing the military. Oil revenues could be spilt by population allocation. How about installing a Republicit worked pretty well here with diverse populations.
The very idea that we should spend our sons and daughters blood or our tax dollars on trying to building a democracy in the region which has neither a history nor a desire for such, is sheer nonsense. The very essence of Islamic teaching speaks directly against this principle. Continuing on the current path can only result in fostering greater hatred for the Great Satan. Force is the only thing which is respected in that part of the world and this force need not be tied to reform. I suggest Mr. Rumsfled acquaint himself with a copy of Julius Caesars Gallic Wars and Sun Tsus Art of War. All the tactics and strategies necessary to subdue the Iraqi insurgents can be found in those two military gems.
Please not the UN
Bringing the U.N. to the party will only compound the problem without adding any accountability. The U.N. has been accused of many things over the years, but being a democratic institution has never been one of them. Just the latest scandal of the Oil for Food program should provide any thinking person with all the evidence they need to keep the U.N. at bay. But this doesnt seem to bother the likes of the John Kerrys of the world who prattle on as if the scam doesnt even exist.
Just one example will make my case; the UN mandate in Israel, which has been in place since 1948. One more salient point needs to be made on this subject. There is no such thing as The International Community. There are only individual countries, each with its own agenda which is always self serving. The myth of a higher level of moral authority coming out of the UN as been one of the greater lies of the past half century, but it is a lie which persists in spite of a bloody record of hypocrisy, graft, genocide and perpetual war for perpetual peace. I have a suggestion for the 9/11 Commission:.Why dont they look into what the UN was doing before the attack on the World Trade Center? If they do, they will find that exactly one week before, the UN was holding a Conference on Racism in Durbin, South Africa where the delegates voted overwhelmingly to condemn Israel, as racist and terrorist. The U.S., Canadian and Israeli delegates walked out in disgust. Nary a word was uttered about Saddam Hussein, al Qaeda, or the Taliban, to say nothing of what was happening in Rwanda while they crunched caviar on toast and washed it down with vintage Champaign. Genocide does not qualify as racism according to the UN morality. Neither we nor the world needs the UN to muck up what is already a very delicate situation. If given proper leadership every Middle Eastern country named above will throw in with the Coalition, for if they dont they will be the next targets of the Third Great Jihad and the Great Caliphate. Pakistan is already showing the leadership which others will follow. What do you think moved Kadahaffi to cozy up to the U.S. and Great Britain? He fears the Jihadist more than he hates us.
Evil Does Exist
Our current crises, in meeting the threat of the Third Jihad, is one more example of how most Americans simply refuse to believe there is evil in this world and are willing to grant moral equivalence on any human action. Unless the crime is personalized such as in the case of Lacy Peterson, we lose interest quickly and become bored or at least not involved.
To try and understand what we are facing, look into the eyes of your son or grandson and try to fathom a mind which would take pride in strapping a bomb to his body and sending him out to kill himself and countless innocent people. Or in the case of your daughter or grand daughter, try to imagine a religion which commands you to mutilate her vagina to destroy her sex drive or demands you to stone her to death if she has sexual relations with a man other than of your choosing.
If you can comprehend these facts both intellectually and emotionally, then you will start to understand what we are facing in the months and years ahead, both at home and abroad.
The radicals of Islam will stop at nothing to destroy us and all we stand for. They see this war as their entry to paradise and a release from the miserable existence they have built for themselves within the confines of an evil and perverse religion. The Jihadist are NOT like us, nor most of their fellow Muslims. But, like terrorists everywhere they have silenced any criticisms from fellow Muslims through threat and intimidation and have, with the help of the useful idiots in the West, created the appearance of popular support.
If we are incapable of understanding these realities and acting accordingly, within the life time of everyone who reads these words, we will see our cherished way of like cease to exist and chaos become our lot. The Clash of Civilizations is now reaching out and touching all of us. May God grant us the wisdom and the courage to meet the challenge. "Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western civilization as it commits suicide" - James Burnham
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The first Mosque in Damascus was a Christian church rented to the Muslims for their services. When Saladin drove the Catholics out of Jerusalem he allowed the Jews and orthodox Christians to remain.
Not every Muslim ruler was as wise, tollerent or beneficent but such qualities throughout history are observed to be independent of the ruler's professed religion.

During certain times Protestantism offered a similar deal in Europe, though as often the Catholics made a counter offer that was not lightly to be refused.

That is totally false. Wahhabis are Sunni. The Shia are the Wahhabis worse enemies within Islam.

What a crock. The Shah of Iran came into power via an American supported coup under Eisenhower that replaced the Republican Iranian government.

Let's not forget that the first and last Democratic government of Pakistan halted the Pakistani nuclear weapons program. It was resumed after the coup that put Musharraf into power.

Splorf! Yes, let's throw in some UN-phobic propaganda too.

So why was that effort put on hold, allowing al Queda and the Talleban to survive and regroup?

IOW there wasn't any evidence that he was. Compare that to Saudi Arabia, Iran, or the Gulf States.

UH, attacking the Israelis and others in Israel.

And I am quite sure that the Kurds would have been tickled pick to have us build a nice big military base right smack in the middle of Iraqi Kurdistan. Heck, I bet they still would. Contrast that, if you will, to just how welcome we are in the rest of Iraq.

He's not running for office in November.

Which is one more reason why it was so stupid and irresponsible to back off from fighting them and fight Iraq instead.

Yeah, pinko Muslims....
--

FF





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i would like to hear some substantiation of that.

Close enough for me.
Accidentally, i think that Afghan war is both justified and winnable (concluded with capture of Osama and destruction of Taliban and installation of a effective and friendly regime, which would require ongoing military support).
Unfortunately, it has been put on back burner to fail, as troops and money are diverted to Iraq.

We are running very large deficits, and the war is more expensive than it appears duee to hidden costs.

if this country was invaded, I would fight also and set up roadside bombs, etc.

i
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wrote:

other

hole

Osama bin Laden wants the United States to convert to Islam, ditch its constitution, abolish banks, jail homosexuals and sign the Kyoto climate change treaty.
The first complete collection of the Saudi's statements published today portrays a world in which Islam's enemies will take the first steps towards salvation by embracing the "religion of all the Prophets".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/11/17/wladen17.xml
And he is not alone in the muslim world
Cairo - Osama Shaltut claims to descend from the Prophet Mohammed and the centrepiece of his campaign for the Egyptian presidency is a promise to convert the entire world to Islam. http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1760993,00.html
Islam has a 1400 year history of this attitude.

large

If this country was ruled by a dictator who tortured and killed thousands, and we were invaded by a power that quickly held free elections to elect a government of the people, you would fight them? That is nuts!

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snip-----

Heh! You know that, and I know that, ----but we're dealing with a disproportionate number of irrational people in those countries- The very idea that beheading the "enemy" shows they're leaps and bounds behind being a civilized society. They think differently than we do-----it's almost pointless to make comparisons between the two societies, and even more pointless to assume that they desire the same things we do.
We're so damned far over our heads over there that it's going to haunt us for an eternity. This thing is far worse than Viet Nam--------at least in my eyes.
The one thing for which I'm thankful is that the vets aren't being disrespected as they were for the Nam fiasco. We owe the guys in the trenches a huge debt of gratitude.
Harold
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thousands,

being

I was trying topoint out Iggy's irrationality.
It's interesting that the "cradle of civilization" is now so uncivilized.

We were fighting an ideological war with communism in Nam. The clearly stated goals of the Soviets was to spread communism through the world, ditto with the Muslims extremists. The difference is that the Muslims are much better funded because of their oil. Perhaps if we had kicked the communists butt in Nam the Berlin wall would have fallen in 1970 instead of 1990.
This is not a new situation. Muslim terror rolled out of the Arab pennisula in the 7th century and the religion has spred predominantly, but not completely, by violence ever since.

Unfortunately this is starting to happen now and I expect it will get worse. I only have a couple of 2nd hand stories on this but I believe them
Carl

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Oh yeah! I understand, and wasn't critical of what you'd said. More so just agreeing with your comments by making a few of my own.

Exactly! But then, if you want to see any civilization take a giant leap backwards, introduce religion------ANY religion------ to the society, and watch folks start believing in what can be no better described as "witchcraft". Fact is, Christianity is no better-------history has shown religions of all flavors to be bloodthirsty organizations--------filled with mysticism and killing.

Doesn't hurt that these morons readily give up their lives to kill others, either. I'm not convinced that the typical USSR soldier was that dedicated, meaning I don't recall any of them being suicide bombers.

I hope I can speak for the masses when I say that what you may have heard is an anomaly-----that it doesn't represent the common man. Imagine being in the position of wanting to serve your country, then finding that your leaders have a "get even" mentality-----sort of like trying to pay back the guy that tried, unsuccessfully, to kill your daddy when he was president. Some of these guys (and gals) are serving their duty under protest------but still serving their duty. They're earned respect----and proven that they are willing to lay down their lives----even when we're being lead by morons, of which there appears to be no shortage these days.
Harold
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I think your statement about introducing religion is not substantiable. I am unaware of any historical evidence of a non religious society, only theroies of non religious prehistoric societies. I am open to correction if you have references.
While there have certianly been bloodthirsty political leaders claiming to be of particular religions, bloodthirsty individual religious leaders, and bloodthirsty periods in religions, I don't believe it is accurate, in general, to characterize religions as bloodthirsty organizations.

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