Vise grips tools

That's exactly right Ed. The shlock shops can't survive modern technology here in the US and end up out of bussiness because they aren't qualified in their chosen field. What Iggy is hearing is sour grapes.

With the crash of the housing market you'll see fewer shops spring up. Moldmaking is terrible when you look at the capital investment required to compete in the US market. You need a million dollars to fully open a real mold shop and operate to it profitability these days. Maybe more. Given the current climate in the financial services industry, a new guy has to bring every dollar to the table on his own.

place like good

I can only speak for places I have worked and/or been privy to peer inside for a bit. The problem solvers are treated like loose cannons, management can't control them (which is related to why they are problem solvers) and thus only puts up with them to a point. If they were held in high regard management wouldn't hire stupid contemporaries and keep them around after numerous screw ups while punishing the actual problem solver.

I quit passing on "good ideas" to upper management long before leaving. It really ripped me up to see them ignored and/or bastardized. I either figured out how to implement it myself or lived without...

As Steve A. mentioned in a follow up post, read some of Matthew B. Crawford's recent work. You don't have to get his book, just listen/read some of the interviews he has done promoting his book "Shop Class as Soulcraft". His tale is much the same as I have personally seen (shrug).

Yes, very well put. I only use them when there is no proper tool for the job or it isn't readily available.

A neighbor stopped in not too long ago. Wonder if I could help him hold/unscrew a large (4 inch?) plastic pipe fitting in the bottom of a 55 gallon drum. He said it was only finger tight but that he couldn't reach both sides at the same time. I was busy at the time (lunch I think :) so I loaned him a very large jawed and a chain Vise-Grip. Told him one or both would probably be able to grip his pipe. If not I would stop by after lunch. He was back a short time later with a big grin, the large jaw version did the job just fine. He had never seen either version before, but had a sudden urge to buy one of the large jaw models :)

They are indeed, and wonderfully so. Field expedient, about never exactly the right tool but sometimes they're the only tool available that works and often the most convenient -- as in clamping and jigging stuff for welding.

But the bottom line here is that *American* importer/distributors are willing to bring in and sell crap, and that *we* Americans are willing to buy crap. If *we* were better educated as to what constitutes quality, no one would buy the junk, the importers would require better quality from the Chinese, and (I believe) they would easily be up to the task of manufacturing quality goods. Prices would go up, but still lower than with stuff made with American wages. I doubt that most of the cost-cutting shaves more than a small amount off the price.

If the 'Merkins are willing to buy junk, what is the incentive for the Chinese to produce good stuff? The blame should probably start with the Wal Mart Empire.

Joe

On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 07:10:59 -0400, the infamous Joe scrawled the following:

You were fine up to here. And you're right up to a point. In the quest of cheap, Americans, distributors, importers, and Chinese (other than the original manufacturers the importers worked with) build and accepted the cheaper crap each year. Overall, though, the cheap crap from Chiwan is better now than it was 35 years ago when I I first encountered it from Harbor Freight and Ben Franklin Dime stores.

Cheap crap from Japan and China were coming in LONG before Wally World existed as a major entity, Joe. Don't blame Wally for that, though they're now part of it.

-- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

Well, that last part is definitely true, but it could be argued that the increase in quality is due to "market forces" demanding (OK, preferring) something better. Incremental improvement to find out where the consumers' tolerance level lies. Other issues could come into play as well; I'm really not much of a student of the marketplace, except where my own wallet is involved.

And hey, I had forgotten all about good ole Ben Franklin stores. Hadn't seen one since the mid-70s.

True, but I remember when Sam Walton was still alive, and Wally crowed about their "buy American" philosophy. Soon after his demise, American-made stuff disappeared from their shelves, and their suppliers were told to "meet this price" or go to hell. Couldn't happen if domestic manufacturers had to pay decent wages. As perhaps the biggest player in the consumer game, they set the new standard. Of course, the majority of this country were active participants, as we happily bought the cheaper stuff to save a few bucks, and in the long run drove much manufacturing away from our shores. I really saw that happening with the mass closings of the cotton mills that were the primary economy when I moved here in 1980 - now almost extinct.

This isn't all just a blame game, though. The cycle of who is on top and who relinquishes that spot goes on inexorably. Right now Asia is in the ascendancy. The US can't stop that, but by being innovative, we can at least hold our own - the rising economies in Asia will happily spend some of their new wealth on novel inventions that haven't yet become common commodities. In the long run, we just need to adapt.

Joe

The root of the cheapening-of-consumer-goods problem, IMO, is that the American consumer has had their expectation of quality lowered, and it isn't new.

For several decades, the quality of goods has been aimed toward the throw-away, disposable goods we see everywhere today. The ratio of the number of repairable goods has probably never been as low at any time since the industrial revolution.

A new realization needed to be accepted.. it will cost more to repair it than to replace it.

Americans aren't just willing to buy the crap, they're actually happy to buy it, content and satisfied/convinced that they are saving money. Happy being stupid.

After WWII, when cheaply-made Japanese goods were being imported, the American consumers understood that the toys and trinkets were cheaply-made goods, and if they wanted better quality goods, there were countless stores with better grades of merchandise. Junk stores were the minority.

Japan went on to become a world class producer of electronics, optics, precision laboratory equipment, vehicles, and more. Excelling is part of their culture, and it was reflected in their manufacturing industry.

I sincerely doubt that China will ever be inclined to produce high quality goods for export. I'm not aware of any goods they produce that are even as good as the average quality of previously domestically-produced goods in the USA. They make a whole new level of cheap crap.. that's where they excel. Many domestic American manufacturers would never have stooped to that level.. it would have been embarrassing to make junk like that.

China has shown all manufacturers worldwide, that no one can produce goods as cheap as they can (not just as cheaply). In many cases, most manufacturers couldn't have imagined all the shortcuts that are common in most Chinese products.

As the expectations of buyers continues to be lowered, the quality of goods will continue to spiral downward, IMO.

It' too bad that landfills in China won't be filling up with the crap they manufacture.

Don't bet your career on that notion.

Examine high-end Chinese antiques. When the European market demanded quality China produced porcelain that Dresden could barely match.

I've worked with engineers and technicians from all over the world and have seen much more variation between individuals than nationalities, if they are really proficient there is no hint in their work of where they came from. The less experienced ones do show cultural biases, such as unwillingness to risk making a mistake in front of foreigners.

European auto makers tried to break into the US market with low cost products and little investment in overhead. The strategy worked for a while, but how many Renaults and Fiats have you seen recently? VW, Honda et.al. created solid repair organizations and a good reputation before succeeding here.

So far China sells mostly lower-valued throw-away products to consumers, and supplies considerably better custom subassemblies to domestic OEMs who can negotiate directly for the level of cost & quality they need. If you demand and pay them for quality they can certainly provide it. They learn fast.

jsw

I had mentioned earlier that China appears to be capable of producing better-quality goods, and that I suspect that Chinese tradesmen and professionals don't use the low quality tools that are imported into the USA for the consumer market.

I don't know squat about antiques, but my guess would be that you were referring to artsy-type products for the elite european classes. No doubt there are highly skilled professionals, craftsmen and artisans in China, and I've never had the opinion that the Chinese are incapable or lacking intelligence.

The career advice may be applicable to younger folks, Jim. I agree that China (and India) workers will gain a substantial portion of the typical production workforce type of employment in the near future, without having to move to the USA or North America.

I also agree that the lowering of quality in goods comes from the people who specify the level of quality and price (or just price). I don't need any Vise-Grips, but when I do, I'll be surprised if the quality will be as good as my older, and not-so-old models (I still have some that I haven't used).

Many folks believe that the reason Chinese goods cost less, is that it costs less to produce those goods "over there". If that were the only factor, China could have been producing a superior vise grip-type plier (or other common goods) for a considerably lower retail price here in the USA. Instead, the Chinese versions are substantially inferior in quality, and despite the poor quality, they probably outsell the genuine quality product by maybe 10 to 1, or higher (just a guess).

I've not seen any superior Chinese goods, only inferior quality looky-like products (Vise-Grip and countless other inferior products). I have seen better quality (low or average-priced) consumer goods products from Korea and Taiwan.