alternative to Hatch/Kohl 724 in the works

Jerry Irvine wrote:


I suspect that their thoughts are going rather along the lines of "politics is the art of the possible - let's try for what we can get without crossing the 'anti-terrorist' line in the sand that some of the senators want to draw..."
-dave w
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RayDunakin wrote:

If one tries hard enough and often enough, it's possible to put your head through a brick wall. Even if unsuccessful, he can at least show people some redeeming characteristics, such as persistence and thick-headedness. But, I can think of a few others that are less complimentary. ;)
-John
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No, reporting that the content will not be released until the author releases it, is reasonable. I blast them for SPECIFIC items that I describe and in many cases OFFER an alternative point of view or list of actions that would be superior.
To broadly claim "I would blast them" is intellectually dishnest and a change of subject. Let's talk about what ACTUALLY is happening and discuss that.

I never claimed to be impartial. I merely claimed to be intellectually honest and to discuss the actual issues. I have openly admitted my personal shortcomings on several occasions. I have admitted when I am wtong, I have paid bets I have made. I am not so biased that I am not inmtellectually honest.
I am biased that NAR and TRA are illegally requiring (read REQUIRING with penalties) ATF permits for good that ATF itself agree are EXEMPT from their regulatory control for permits and storage.
I am biased that this FACT is a leading indicator that NAR/TRA supporting HK724 (hereafter the big buttfuck) is consistent with the other illegal acts I cited above.
The alternative course of action is FAR more favorable to rocketry, to the cliebnts of NAR/TRA, to all rocket vendors and all dealers.
If the BIG BUTTFUCK were to be passed there would be a major throttle as compared to the current situation with no sich legislation at all.
SB724 (the Enzi Bill, hereafter heaven on earth) provided a provision to make BP clearly permissible for a wide range of rocketry purposes and verified any non-detonable propellant (ie a non-explosive) would be permissible in any quantity JUST AS IT IS NOW but in a way ATF cannot arbitrarily change at will.
Support HEAVEN ON EARTH and not the BIG BUTTFUCK.
Oh, and if you reply, state your position SPECIFICALLY on the NAR/TRA tendency to demand and ENFORCE the use of ATF permits for exempt propellants and propellant actuated devices.
This way your "bias" is disclosed.
Jerry

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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My bias is SPECIFICALLY that my ATFE agent does not buy your 27 CFR 55.141-q-8 argument/defense. She states that she will consider me in violation of ATFE regulations if I have APCP rocket motors over 62.5g per grain in non-approved storage or transport them or use them without a LEUP. So if I take your advice, I get accused of a felony. So I have a choice to abide by the rules you suggest, or the rules that an ATFE agent with the power to charge me with a felony suggests. I am not willing to jeapardize several years of my life and my family to see if you are right. All evidence from the people who can put me in jail is that you are wrong, even though logic / science say you are right.
So, your blanket exemption is of no use to me (nor to anyone else but yourself, that I know of. I know of no other specific person who has agreement from their ATFE agent that APCP is exempt under 27 CFR 55.141-q-8).
I must therefore choose between ARSA's shoot for the sky, all or nothing approach or NAR/TRA's let's try to get something reasonable for most hobbyists approach. I understand that NAR/TRA's approach will cut SOMEONE out of exemption. But I believe that ARSA's approach, which is based on logic and reason and which I agree with COMPLETELY in THEORY, has near zero chance of succeeding in a partisan political world (the real world). So I choose to support NAR/TRA's approach of compromise. I know you condemn compromise. But, I take measured, calculated risks. I don't take wreckless risks. All or nothing in this political, post 9/11 environment is a wreckless risk.
-- David

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They do not have jurisdiction over transportation. DOT does. ATF jurisdiction ends at each end of a DOT transport event.

I am not advocating doing whatever I day in defiance of an agent order (yet another law). I am saying you stick the law in their face, tell them you will follow the LAW and not their opinion, newsletter or made up mini-rules. You have that RIGHT as a citizen. The ORANGE BOOK is their bible. Use it against them and WIN!!

Have balls.

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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If it has to go through the Senate Judiciary committee again, the bill is toast. Look at today's committee proceedings. Washington is gearing up for an election year and both sides are grumpy. Take what you can now and work to improve it over time.
David wrote:

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LEUP.
Ok, so did you ask her why a8 does not cover a rocket motor? If ACPC propellant in a motor case does not constitute a PAD because it's not propellant actuated, then what you're putting in the casing is NOT ACPC propellant AND unless she can demonstrate it's ability to explode, it's not APCP explosive, so it's not regulated.
Joel. phx
You know, this would be a whole lot easier if ya'll stopped buying motors which use explosive material.
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You sir are paying attention (still).

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:

That would be a felony.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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(RayDunakin) wrote:

Does anyone know of a criminal prosecution that has dealt with this issue? Has anyone ever been charged related to using APCP in a rocket motor (or anywhere else for that matter) with regard to the explosives regulations? Surely someone has gotten cross-wise with the ATF over APCP somewhere, sometime, just by accident. What happened? Did the DOJ prosecute? I have never heard of a prosecution, but I can certainly understand the trepidation of an isolated citizen taking on the ATF. This is an area where the NAR and TRA should have (and should have had long ago) a *well-informed* support function for all involved in rocketry. If I was on a jury and someone showed me the 27 CFR 55.141-a-8 PAD exemption then asked "Do you call it Rocket Explosive or Rocket Propellant?" I think the decision would be pretty clear. If no one has EVER been prosecuted, it could be that the prosecutors recognize that the case is pretty weak and the ATF is trying to cow everybody.
Has anyone ever made a comparison chart of burn rates and pressure exponents for APCP versus black powder, smokeless powder, TNT, etc.? A .ppt chart like this should clinch it that current APCP isn't even close to being an explosive, at least no more than dry ice is in a soda bottle.
Heavens, now we'll need LEUP's for dry ice!
Brad Hitch
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On 24 Jul 2003 20:42:43 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@tda.com (Brad Hitch) wrote:

You fool!
The BATF reads this forum!
Not only will they now require a LEUP for dry ice, but now all magazines will have to have refrigeration in case there's a need to store dry ice!
Thankfully, you didn't point out that water can easily be separated into hydrogen and oxygen.
<homer simpson voice> D'oh! </homer simpson voice>
Zooty
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since that takes an electric current, we will see background checks before you can get electric service to your house
;o)
- iz

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CHUP: Cloud Chamber Users Permit
My little Alpha source will be so disappointed... Patrick

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Rocketry in KY!
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CHUP: Cloud Chamber Users Permit
My little Alpha source will be so disappointed... Patrick

--
Rocketry in KY!
Visit the BluesRockS website:
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CHUP: Cloud Chamber Users Permit
My little Alpha source will be so disappointed... Patrick

--
Rocketry in KY!
Visit the BluesRockS website:
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It was my undestanding that the JBGTs that come out and violate your 4th ammendment rights do not have the power to arrest you. They collect information which may be turned over to someone else. Right now I'd LOVE to see them actually charge someone with a felony for possessing a 63g APCP motor without storage and a permit. I'm sure the media would have a three ring circus showing waste of government resources going after a hobby rocketeer in todays terrorist plagued world. I nominate Jerry Irvine to be that individual.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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Bob Kaplow wrote:

Except Jerry's agent already knows the rules. You might have better luck getting yours to "take the bait".
(However, although many of us would love to see the Bureau be taken down off its high horse by a good hard scandal, we have to remember that this is the agency that survived the Waco fiasco, organizationally intact to all external appearances. How did BATFE get to be so "teflon" in the fist place?)
-dave w
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David Weinshenker wrote:
(However, although many of us would love to see the Bureau be

Partly because the FBI came in in relief, and turned an outrageously ridiculous screw-up into one of globally witnessed ineptitude thereby letting the ATF off the hook.
I think the FBI came in at Ruby Ridge, too.
Doug
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"Bob Kaplow"

---------
Big Fat Chance.
The media would fry the arrested person directly on the fire. He/She would be a lone nut out to destroy America, and ties to terrorist groups would be investigated.
HDS
I second that nomination.
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to
three
be
The local media had a field day with an ATF raid on a weapons cache here in the valley. Rockets, rocket launchers, machine guns and hand grenades! Next day, page 3 is a story about the cache consisting mostly of "trophies weapons" which are disabled or display items. The grenades were the inert type you can get at the gun shows and use as paperweights (or a "please take a number" gags)
Joel. phx
Sorry, we'll fix your door,...

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