Another Attack on Rocketry

Well, yes, I realized that too.

The whole thing is written by someone at about my daughter's 4th grade level. Actually my daughter usually does better than this document.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

OK, So I was in the correct sketch, just got the rules mixed up.

I'll have to pop in that DVD and study.

Allright...I'll put on my Pratt Nomex Shorts here...I don't think most of these rules are unreasonable. How many rmr's who've trashed these regulations have actually secured a field and run large launches in the northeastern US? Let me tell you, it isn't easy, can be thankless, and unless you write out rules and then enforce them, people do lots of dumbass things that YOU are responsible for. This document spells out who is responsible for what goes on at the launch and makes it clear and unambiguous. The problem is people who should be responsible in their actions are often not. The catch is, the BOD's individual names are on the sheet somewhere on the contract with the landowner. That means if Joe Shmo's kid runs out to the pads and gets hurt, the BOD's home and life savings will be there for somebody's lawyer to go after. The people who run organized launches are taking a not insignificant financial risk for your benefit. This group just seems to actually have the balls to spell it out so they are somewhat protected if people misbehave. No problem there. Regarding not using the field or calling the landowner, it looks to me like the BOD of this organization did the near impossible task of finding a large flying field and negotiated with it's owner. I've done the same thing twice (for what are presently two of the only 4 or 5 fields in the state that can be used by clubs). Getting and keeping a field takes a ton of ongoing time, phone calling, legwork, networking, and big-time butt-kissing (for years on end) to keep it rocket friendly. I don't want anyone trying to "take" my find or jeopardising all my hard work. If someone else annoys the landowner or goes flying there and screws up, I'm going to lose my field. So the line about not flying there other than with the club is right on. As for $45 membership...give me a break, thats four bucks a month. It's all going into the club kitty and will likely serve the membership somehow (If you're going to say they are trying to get rich or pocket your dough, then there is no basis for any kind of discussion here). Launches cost money to run...usually couple hundred to landowner and few hundred for portajohns ($100+ apiece, plus newspaper and reading material for each one). PA systems run in the hundreds for large size. Try to find a better deal somewhere else. The only rule I question is level II for F to G. Perhaps the tone of the rules bothers the fairly right wing, "Live Free or Die" value system of many who participate in our hobby, but none of the rules, excepting the above rule on level II, will interfere with one's ability to go out there and have a good time. All they do is spell out exactly who is responsible for what. I think whoever did them is actually doing rocketry in the Boston area a service. The northeast isn't the south or the southwest...people are more likely to sue and less tolerant of things. A strict set of rules like this is typical of everything in this part of the country. Little league coaches have to take multi-hour risk management courses before they can coach. Parents sue if their kids don't make the basketball team around here...and they do so regularly. So there...flame away...just know that I am not a lawyer, actually cant stand them or our lawsuit happy culture...but these are the times we live in. We all just have to deal with it.

Art T South Jersey Area Rocketry Society NAR# 34201 L1

"Launches cost money to run...usually couple hundred to landowner and few hundred for portajohns ($100+ apiece, plus newspaper and reading material for each one). PA systems run in the hundreds for large size. Try to find a better deal somewhere else."

Ya know, I'e been down there several times, you know what they have, ZILCH, NADA, yopu need to go to the john, its a LONG walk to the woods. I saw a card table THATS ALL, you have to bring your OWN launch pad, launch controller AND pay a fee to fly, find a better deal, I did, our club has over a dozen pads ( Low to mid ) and 3 HPR pads. Membership is a HELL of a lot cheaper and guess what, NO LAUNCH FEE

My 2 cents

Joel NAR 77267 TRA 09848 L2

Oh ya they let ANYBODY fly too, member or not, ANY SIZE MOTOR

I tried to sum up how MARS Club

compares to Frontier rocketry. please read our commetns below, these are to the best of my knowledge and can be denied at any time.

Mars Club. $10 per person or $15 for family. No need for membership to fly at our launches.

Mars Club. ask if you wanna launch and we'll usualy accomodate you. this weekend we plan on launching out in the middle of a lake, temps expected to be in the teens-20s. president will attend and bring any launch equipment you need that the club has available at no extra cost.

Mars Club. RSO has Final say on launch field, even over president of club. President has been denied launching rockets in violation of not only NAR safety rules, but rules of common sense. If a rocket is found Violating NAR safety regs, the president will do his best to help repair rocket, correct problem, or show rocketeer the error of his ways.

Mars Club. Launches can be held without the presidents knowledge (and probably has). If equipment is wanted but not the presence of the president, asking for use of club launch equipment is encouraged.

Mars Club. Control? the webmaster is in control. President is financialy responsible for all hosting fees, registration, and care and feeding of webmaster (well almost)

Mars Club. President is reponsible for all begging and pleading with owners and tennants for anything any club member wants, not matter how small or insignificant.

Marss club. President welcomes someone to take on the job of calling in notification and waivers, but since everyone wants them but no one wants to call, the president MUST call them in. Memebers wanting to call for such may be offerd full membership and possible seat of vice president.

Mars club. If we get permission to fly on a field. tell your freinds, tell your enemies, tell everyone! we welcome the chance to have people launch with us and see us strut our stuff.

Mars club. voting optional. ballot stuffing and other cheating preferred. AS LONG AS THEY DONT VOTE FOR ME AGAIN!!!!!

Mars club. Rsults of voting will be lost, found, hidden, buried, dug up, denied, forged and other such atrocities. if you actually wanna know who won, show up at the meeting when we vote. Absentees will be automaticaly nominated for president and listed first on the ballots.

Mars Club.The website will get updates when the webmaster sees fit. Bribes of food and drink are prefered ways to expedite changes

Mars Club. Dues will stay what they are, as there are plenty of other rocket clubs they could go to. all attemps will be made to keep national affiliations and insurance, but this may be caused by imposed discussions on fundraising instead of building rockets and watching rocket videos at meetings

Mars Club. we do our best to keep costs down. this means we fly wherever we can get for free. you pay for your own food at the after-launch eats if suggested. If any BOD member gets $150 the president will beat it out of him and use the proceeds to buy kits for free give aways to members.

Mars Club. we do our best to stay in the rules (ahem)Flight cards are nice, but if you just tell us your name and kit and engine we'll gladly put it in the log. spectators are invited to push the button. Violations will be reviewed, posible threats will be made and all will be forgotten unless intentional repeats are made. Further Violations will result in placement into position of president.

Mars club. we have at least 3 members with will be over to your house in a half hour to help you prep, transport, and fly your HPR rocket. Please pardon the drool.

Mars Club. for small stuff RSO your own stuff. New members way request assistance of the President. Safety Rules will be discussed during launches.

Mars Club. Non Members can touch every part of F thru M rockets at any time. they may also ask to push the button, the the own of the rocket has first chance.

Mars Club. Non Members can borrow rockets anf fly any engine the bring or purchase. We do nto require the members to pay non-members for this priveledge.

Mars club. Bring rocket, Fly. repeat. Feel free to Lie about what rocket it was, what engines, and who you are. If you want, you can write your flight into our log. maybe we'll do a flight report.

Mars Club. If someone wants to brag about what they flew and how they flew it, we'll gladly listen. no one is forced to report what they did. there are plenty of flights that I wish I could not have reported, ever.

Mars Club. anyone with a certfied flight has to buy the rest of the attending club members Dinner. This rule only applies to the president. Anyone who want to do dual deploy can do so but must supply their own equipment.

Mars Club. We assume that since you spent hundreds of dollars on rocket, chutes, engines and such, that you have will want to show everyone the results from any onboard toy you put in there. Please do not be disapointed if some members are to busy to drop everything and watch (but I bet most will)

Mars Club. Keep your launch equipment clean! the president will gladly haul all of the launch gear even if you only need to fly an Estes Gnome

Mars club. anyone can play with the launch gear. we got it because as a club we can afford to buy things that a single member could not justify. in fact the president would love to have an extra helping hand, regardless if it is a member or not

Mars club. If someon reminds the president, he might bring the table. feel free to help him and set it up where ever. controllers do not need to be on the table. table can be used for prep of rockets. or for the range store. or for shade. warning. table is not strong enough to lean or sit on.

Anyone who wishes to doate another table will get a full years membership

Mars club. If your rocket is ready, go fly it!

Mars Club. anyone who wants to sell anything can show up and start by going to the president. He is a sucker for justabout any club thing and is an easy sell.

Mars Club. If there is a patch of ice we want to launch on, the presidents vehicle goes first. If it holds, others may bring their vehicles, or demand a ride from the president if travel is too inconvienent

Mars Club. We are here to have fun. we don't mind that you watch, here, take the presidents seat and rest. Enjoy the launch.

ROTFLMAO!!!

David Erbas-White

< much good stuff snipped, but I encourage you to look back on the thread and read it if you haven't, because it's that good! >

absolutely wonderful!!!

if the national orgs treated the hobby with this level of tongue-in-cheek, we would have 50,000 irreverant people having a blast flying rockets. And just as many wondering how they could get in on the fun!

I nominate tater to be the Most High Exalted Ruler of Rocketry!

- iz :))

wait..are you saying I'm supposed to have fun within some common sense guidelines?

blasphemy.

disapointed

Are you sure you wanna do that? Look how much he was griping about being president! (Although I suppose that means he's a good one - you wouldn't trust someone who actually was eagerly after the job, now would you?)

-dave w

LOL Thats funny. Now you need to go and actually read the first post.

Did you stay to the left or right of that card table ?

If you actually GOT anything for that $45, I might agree with some of that.

But, for $45, you get to bring your own launch pads. And NAR & TRA sub-clubs have to be formed, and have their OWN dues. So it's really likely more than $45.

On top of it all, if you read it, you'll find that the $45 doesn't go to paying the landowner for use of the land. Nope, the fliers who show up each day have to collect $150 amongst themselves to cover that.

Now, if Frontier Rocketry were paying the landowner with that $45, or were buying/maintaining launch equipment, I might go along with some of it.

But Frontier takes $45/month and really gives you nothing in return.

Well, no, that's not exactly true. For your $45/yr, you get a lot of overly-stringent rules that are likely to totally and completely stifle the hobby in that area.

-Kevin

Replace MARS with NIRA and you're not very far off.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Naah, that's Shread Vector!

Probably the same way most of us get elected: no one else volunteers, and you weren't there to turn it down.

Either that or someone complained, and was handed the job.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Can't let you do that; it would displace Jerry..(-;)

Fred

I wonder how they expect to enforce this if the person contacting the landowner is not a member of the club?? Suppose another group wants to use that site? If the landowner doesn't want to let other groups use the site, fine, that up to them. But where does this club get off thinking they have any say in the matter?

Every high power club in the country has already violated this rule against contacting the FAA! ;)

Even if one takes into consideration the possibility that this is just a poorly worded prohibition on contacting the FAA about a waiver _for that specific site_, it's still stupid. Why would anyone contact the FAA if they didn't already have the landowner's permission to launch from that site?

The whole tone of the list of rules suggests that it was intended to forestall problems with site owners, but these details certainly seem weird! Did the site owner make such a condition? "We'll rent the field out for rocket launches to you Frontier folks, but you have to make sure that all requests come through you guys and nobody else ever asks us..." I'm finding it difficult to believe that the owner would make this particular stipulation.

-dave w

} So they think they can keep an NAR member from asking permission from a land } owner to fly at that location on a different day other than when they have a } launch, even though they are covered under NAR? Wrong, and sounds like } lawsuit waiting to happen, not to mention they didn't clarify use of public } lands.

They could if they contracted with the land owner for use during a specified time period, such as a year's lease to leave a storage shed there. Or they could contract with the land owner for exclusive use with no such structure, as long as the land owner agrees.

But if the land owner doesn't sign a contract specifying that, the landowner can, of course, do anything they wish. Same with the FAA. No one can prevent a US citizen from having access to a government agency.

But these are the club's rules, and they say that if you were to do so, they could kick you out, not that you couldn't do it. They've got the right to make any rules they want, no matter how ridiculous.

Considering the comment regarding raising the price to keep the group from growing too much, I see these rules as much they same; they appear to want to chase people away. They seem to be doing a fairly good job in that respect.

I can see why it's called Frontier Rocketry. After you get done reading all of the AR rules, only a few diehards will want to join. ;-)

Mark Simpson NAR 71503 Level II God Bless our peacekeepers