anyone see this? ATF trying to say motorsa are not PADs

out of the 27 launches I went to in 2004, that is way too high a number. about 7% is more like it. at smaller launches 0%

Since CA rules effectively restrict most HPR motor sales to "on site" anyway, the common practice here is for the motor dealers to "tie off the Federal paper trail" themselves and record the final dispositon of the motors as consumed directly out of their inventory (rather than as a "transfer in commerce to the inventory of a permittee"): since the motor supplier is often the same person as the the State Pyro Licensee that all the motors are being "used by", in compliance with state pyro regulations, the legal fictions are at least consistent... admittedly, this involves a somewhat Clintonian definition of "used by", but the CSFM evidently doesn't really mind that the pyro-op folks let the rest of us help them "use" the motors by installing airframes on them and applying electricity to the igniters...

-dave w

Hey Ray, if monkeys do fly out your butt, be and take pictures. I'm sure you can sell them to the Inquirer.

I thought Gary Rosenfield of AT sued the NAR back in the early 90's over something....while G.Rosenfield was also a NAR trustee? Anyway the fact remains that AT came out with a product that had no regulatory framework, and that rush to market still is reverberating today.......

shockie B)

Interesting the way you word that - "... a product that had no regulatory framework ..." - as if "regulatory framework" was some kind of natural requirement for "a product"...

How many technical advances _were_ made in the context of a "regulatory framework for their existence"? Not damn many, I should think... We certainly didn't wait for the founding of the DMV and the FAA before we started using cars and airplanes!

-dave w

shockwaveriderz wrote:

Just how many have LEUP's. I don't know but I bet many buy on site.

I'am at that cross road now. I want to fly more that just 62.5. I have the rockets. I have the cases. I have the clubs and fields. But I don't have a LEUP. TRA-MN says it's easy. Even if I am willing to go the FED route what chance do I have living in a urban area with 40' lots and the local and state Fire Marshall. Bob Kaplow mentioned this before.

Ken

A renaissance of basement bombers. :(

Or outlaw bikers will learn that trafficing in HPR motors is proffitable at much lower risk than trafficing drugs. Wayward chemists will discover that making HPR motors is much easier and safer that running a crack factory. Of course if the motor catos, I suppose you have to have somebody whacked.

What problems? You got a problem with dat? Ya want me to send Bruno over to 'splain it to ya?

Not funny. Not funny at all.

Alan

Home brew motors again. With the help H.G. Gilbert Chemistry sets and plans from England on rocket motor planes Cira 1950 that's how I got my start before Estes some 1/2 century ago.

We sized our motors by length and diameter. My largest BP was 1.5" by

Nobody knew the close call. My mother wondered what the 12" hole in the picnic table came from? Our powder only blew down not out or up. Powered Mag was our fuse.

Ken

shock wrote:

Yep. Most folks I know do it that way.

When they require permits for PVC pipe, we're all in big trouble.

By now it's a moot point since I have a LEUP. The 1lb of black powder sitting in my MissleWorks Magazine are a real threat to safety ;-) Don't get me started about igniter storage....

Jurisdiction will be a problem. Model and High Power Rockets do not fit the definition of a weapon (particularly intended use). PVC is not on the explosives list, nor is N2O. At best you're talking about a binary explosive, which means it is only regulated at the time it is combined.

Talk to your local Fire Department. If you live in a NFPA state/town then NFPA 1127 applies. That is both good and bad. Bad because it stipulates 25' from fire source which means at least 25' from your property line. Good because it says Garage storage is ok. My FD would not let me store in an outdoor shed (5' from the property line) but had no problem with garage storage. Having that OK from the FD made getting a variance from Washington easier.

If you actually go and talk to the chief engineer (or whatever they call the person in charge of hazmat/safety issues) you'll probably find that they are very professional people who are interested in what you're doing and just want to make sure you don't burn down your neighbor's house or cause injury to a Fireman.

The other option is contingency storage. If you can find one person with a suitable location for storage than multiple people can use that person for contingency storage.

And I'm sure you have a kneejerk tag line to go with it. Hybrids have been permit free since I've been back in the hobby (almost 10 years). While the ATF has been very clear about their position on APCP, they have been silent on PVC.

My point is, if you want to avoid the issue completely there is a safe, legal way to do it. You might even save some money while you're at it. Since the lawsuit began I've seen doomsday predictions about the BATFE regulating hybrids. The fact is they haven't.

Except for Hyper Tek don't most Hybrids have a Ap core grain near the N20 cylinder. Then wouldn't that be regulated also.

Also , can you get started as a L1 with hybrids. It seems most are L2 type motors! Ken

They have heater grains which are under 62.5G and packaged with the reloads. Many of the vendors (WestCoast in particular) are looking at non-pyro ignition similar to Hypertek. The downside is that it requires O2 tanks. The upside is that ignition is FAST and there are no permit concerns. The problem is that the vendor must get the motors certified for the specific ignition type ( pyro or not) and AFAIK WestCoast is the only one currently certified both ways.

There are several H and I hybrid motors. There are even some G motors going through certification.

This portion is true.

Aerotech just increased SU G prices to $24.95 EACH.

Remember that there are (several) willing suppliers at $16 that are (unreasonably) barred from the industry.

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