anyone see this? ATF trying to say motorsa are not PADs

I am glad you have at least conceeded as I have that HPR as a general consumer product is dead.
I appreciate that.
Jerry
HPR founder LMR founder Turning in my grave and I am not even dead yet!!

I didn't say that HPR is dead or even that it will be ded at some future point. What I am saying it will be regulated via the NAR/TRA Lx process, per the NFPA codes, and a LEUP will be required for motors > 62.5g.....
Regulation to me does not denote DEATH... it denotes to me a transformation in the way the SOP is done.....
The current people who have LEUP will notice basically no changes whatsoever, only those newbies will be effected......and again I say the NAR's mission should be to service these people to help them attain an LEUP and do HPR if they so desire.....In other words the NAr becomes a support and service organization to its memembership that wants to do HPR.......
what I am saying is that some day, coming to a year near you, we would have spents hundreds of thousands od dollars to achieve EXACTLY the same result if we had not opposed the regulations.....Theres no doubt in my mind that the NAR./TRA lawsuits are all bogus..... they are only "holding actions".....in the end the infinite power and resources of FEDGOV will overcome the meager respurces of the NAR/TRA..... Its a lost coss.. but the NAR/TRA is not willing nor able to reconsider their positions...
Prediction: 10 years from all the BATFE regulations will be in effect...... after some initial losses in the market, the NAR./TRA merged and became a service and support organization for its members that wanted to do HPR..... The bad news is the NAR/TRA spent over 600K and 20 years resisting the regulatory framework changes....the good news is that the newly invirogtaed NAR/TRA is actively solciting adults for its new BATFE approved HPR program.....The future looks very bright for growth..
think beyond the box.... shockie B)

I can't find anyone at Earthlink's customer service department who knows the difference between NNTP, HTTP, and IP. (Or so it seems.) So I have given up on posting messages with attachments to Usenet. Its enough to make me drag out my copy of "The World's Only Known Constructively Snotty Computer Science Book" for another read.
I have put a copy of the BATFE's November status report to the court here:
You can get an idea of what judge Walton thought of it by reading:

David Schultz wrote:

Before jerry got booted, his TRA# was something like 12. so I guess that makes jerry an ""early adopter" of TRA!!!"!

One can only hope.

Eh? He is responding to your opinion filled post with his own opinions. Do you have verifiable proof of your claims (opinions)?

Fine, have it your way. I'll just live in my little delusional world where we have a launch every weekend. You live in your world where rocket motors are "aircraft parts".
Jerry Irv> > Define "long". I've been making this observation for several years now and you continue to predict otherwise.
And FWIW I have no connect to TRA or EX, I was just stating a fact that EX has a strong following here.

of course I don't have any proof to back up my asssertions, anymore than he does, or the NAR does regarding the death of rocketry as we know it if the BTAFE gets its way....Its been a propaganda war from the brginning for the the hearts and minds of the NAR/TRA membership: the big bad ATF against us poor little rocketeers..wahhhhhhhhh.....
just because some well known rocketeers make these pronouncements of doom and gloom doesn't make it so.....but since they are more vocal then most others, their opinions all of the sudden become "reality"....
shockie B)

Either we are gaining, maintaining, or losing rights.
I claim we are losing them.
Jerry

I guess it depends if you are a strict constructionist or not...I don't see requiring fingerprinting/background checks as so intrusive to get into HPR.....I would suspect those with something to hide like a 1970's felony conviction may....
as far as rights are concerned, some states and courts are giving out NEW rights everyday.......I'm not aware of any constitutional "right" to shoot N rockets up without some form of regualtion or oversight....
shockie B)

That's an interesting point of view: "anyone who doesn't want to submit to government inspection to launch big toy rockets must be someone who has something to hide..." So people like that should just go away, in order that the Rest of Us might better integrate into the New Regime? Is that what you're indicating? "Well, anyone that wouldn't _want_ to apply for a LEUP _must_ be the sort of people we wouldn't want at _our_ launches anyway; they'd make the Feds nervous..." That's the part where it says that any powers not specifically granted or denied to the Federal Government are reserved to the individual states and to the people in general.
-dave w

I don't "inherently" object to that.
What has been shown for DECASES is that unrestricted access has NOT been a problem.
If anything it has served as a trap for terrorists already due to full disclosure.
Jerry

For many of us, the "inspection" stuff isn't the thing that is preventing us from getting permits. Many of us would never get permission from our local authorities to store "explosives" where we live. I haven't found any listings for "commercial explosive storage" in the local yellow pages.
Glen Overby

Rant Mode on>>>>>
Even if I am willing to concede that APCP was a "dangerous Explosive that needed to be stored in an approved magazine by a permitee", (which I am not), I would find it difficult to maintain that we are not losing our rights.
Prior to the Homeland Security Act, I could purchase a restricted access motor in state without an LEUP and burn it that day. Now, I must find a dealer or LEUP holder to "sponsor" my flight to fly any of those same motors...OR get an LEUP.
Restricted access was/is a motor consisting of individual fuel grains that did not exceed 32.5 grams in weight. This allowed me fly up to a large J motor (1060 NS). While there is some dispute over weather or not "Easy Access" ever legal existed, it was widely recognized as being legal (including the local ATF agents) and therefore existed in a "de facto" sense. This to is being regulated either by the NPRM that is still in process or by the current enforcement actions of the ATF.
Therefore it is a fact that rights that I granting me access larger motors have been reduced since the HSA went into affect.
And at this point, I am only talking about rights to pursue this hobby...don't even get me wound up on the rights to privacy, free travel, due process and illegal search and seizure that have been trampled under in the name of "Security".
I travel BY AIR each and every week for work, In the last six years alone I have flown over 1,000,000 actual miles in the air. I have seen the inside and outside of at least 20 different airports and have made in excess of 300 flights! I flew the week of 9/11 and pretty much every week after that. Do I fell safer? YES...but NOT because of the TSA (Transportation Safety Administration or as we like to call them Thousands Standing Around), the HSA, or the added security measures. It is because of the change in the attitudes of those seated on the plane. The majority now will not be "Sheeple" they will (and have) taken matters into their own hands. Airport security is arbitrary, inconsistent, and basically expensive window dressing. It is there to instill confidence that "Air Travel is safe because we are doing something". And for this sham, I pay an extra security fee on each ticket I purchase, spend an inordinate amount of time standing in a security line in my socks, and allow the government unprecedented access to phone and email conversations, and an unprecedented ability to detain and question me without due process should they ever suspect me as a terrorist.
As to new rights granted. Just check out the ATF's actions, they seem to be granting themselves new ones every month.
conviction may....

Nice McCarthy-esque reasoning there, Shock. "Anyone who doesn't want a police state must have something to hide."
I don't get your point here... are you whining because the orgs are trying to defend HPR? What would you rather have them do, let HPR die out and turn their focus back to Estes kiddie toys?

I have nothing to hide, and consider it VERY intrusive. They catalog and file fingerprints of known criminals. WE ARE NOT CRIMINALS. Yet our fingerprints are now on file in god knows how many government databases.
Amendment IX - The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X - The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

It's the "inspection" thing. It's the fingerprinting. It's the giving up your constitutional rights. It's the fees. It's the never-ending set of hoops. It's the threat of jail and big fines for non compliance.
It's illegal, and those enforcing the bogus laws should be arrested and carted off to jail.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Give that man a standing ovation!
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

I may pop in once in a while. I haven't got time to read all the forums and this new r.m.r. format is hard to use on my computer. Not that the old one was easy either.
I can still use ROL and that together with the local NWR list is where I can be found.
So you folks here won't have to put up with me much!
Geez, I forgot the earplugs and the cheering is deafening! ;-)
Oh, and the email address on my r.m.r. messages is bogus too. Thank you Iz! +McG+