anyone see this? ATF trying to say motorsa are not PADs

ray: I think I'm talking about mid power reloads....I realize that AT was not the 1st to have SU MPR or HPR motors, but surely they were 1st with MPR/HPR reloads?
and as to why there must be a regulatory fraemwork in place before a product can be placed on the marketplace, ask the feds, the CPSC etc about that. Its part of the nanny state I guess...There wasn't any regulatory framework in place either in the stone age when round wheels were developed, but since at least the 20th century there have been regulatory frameworks in place for products..consumer safety and all that... In fact for model rocketry when 1st invented there was no regulatory framework in plcae, but the founders immediately went to the regulatory authorities and got model rocketry into a framework that agreeable to all sides, manufacturers,consumers,etc....AT broke that bond when they placed on the market reloads before a reglatory framework was in plcae, ie you must be 18 yrs of age to purchase reloads...what is hundreds of thousands of reloads hab been sold to those under 18 and because of a product defect they mostly exploded .......same thing for HPR SU or Reloads, they were made avilable to the general public way prior to them even being defined much less having a fregulatory framework such as NFPA 1127 in place... I am not saying regulatrion is good or required, I am saying that is the way of the world in the 20th-21st centuries.....You just can't go around creating fusion model rocket motors and start selling them with outout CPSC oveersight first as the CPSC is tasked with enforcing the FHSA......
shockie B)
The reloads on the market before there was a regulatory framework resulted in a lot of time and money spent by the NAR on behalf of AT/GR to get his reloads legal.
Reply to
shockwaveriderz
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Yet.
Medical nitrous requires a permit, and some welding suppliers (twin cities, mn) won't sell even denatured nitrous to anyone without the permits. If the story about the CPSC letters to small AP sellers is true, then it seems the government already has a tactic that can be used against other materials.
The people who want to eliminate firearms are working towards their goal by taking small steps. The NRA is too large and has too much money for an all-out ban to happen all at once. But by taking a long term approach and going after a little piece at a time, the end goal can be accomplished.
That same strategy is being applied to the model rocketry hobby.
Glen Overby
Reply to
Glen Overby
Dave, you just rebutted your own argument! The DMV and FAA were created _because_ people started driving and flying! The ATF has gotten into our knickers because rockets are more available than before. However, several advancements in the development of human civilization _have_ come about within the existing framework or regulations. What an idiot.
steve
Reply to
default
What an idiot.
square groove golf clubs barbed fishing hooks bizmuth waterfowl shot hybrid rocket motors hormone enhanced beef "new" coke napster DVD's cell phones
Granted, identifying these advancements took about 3 minutes. You must be thinking of something completely different? Pull your head out, Dave.
Reply to
default
Oh oh! I have a better one! (a couple actually)
"I wouldn't pee in your mouth if your teeth were on fire"
or
"Well, now that he's dead, I don't mind saying he was a drunken jerk" steve
Reply to
default
The DMV took over for the PRIVATE auto-club.
Governments wanted to add regs and punative measures and AAA didn't want anything to do with that! They had a CLUB.
BTW the non-punative method WAS working.
FAA is mostly about air traffic control. Unmanned rockets are generally a use of the airspace that is rare, odd, and not well understood. Every time rocketeers tried to teach them and get changes favorable to them, they got them. Perhaps it is time to ask for what is reasonable instead of the minimum needed to barely be happy for a while?
NO weight limits Propellant limits measured in tens of pounds VFR in lieu of waivers NOTAM for rockets over 10 pounds.
Done.
No they are not and that is a fact.
Reply to
Jerry Irvine
I should have been clearer. By "hobby" I was refering to HPR. it won't affect MR. Yet. But even if it does stop here, it WILL have long term impact onthe MR hobby as well. HPR is what is getting adults back into the hobby, and those adults drag kids into MR. Without the new kids, there will be no supply of future adults.
OK, I'll give it a rest when they follow the law, instead of making up illegal rules as they go along.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!
Reply to
Bob Kaplow
Every one of these situations represents cases where government agents should have been convicted and sentenced to long prison sentences.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!
Reply to
Bob Kaplow
I purchase my nitrous at a Auto Speed Shop. No permit required, no license. What permit COULD they ask for? Medical nitrous is a different beast, but denatured nitrous is easily, and legally, available.
Yes, there have been attempts (mainly from the States) to ban use of Nitrous injection. The Hot Rod hobby has a better lobby than we do and has been pretty successful in defeating those attempts.
Bottom line is that Hybrids are legal without a permit today. And there is nothing on the horizon to indicate that a change is imminent.
Glen Overby wrote:
Reply to
Alex Mericas
I doubt that Henry Forh has a drivers license or the Wright brothers had Pilot licenses.
Look at how much red tape the government threw in front of CATS and X-prize folks.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!
Reply to
Bob Kaplow
I told NAR so (1980-4).
> "I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. > The U.S. government will lead the American people in and the > West in general into an unbearable hell and a choking life."
Reply to
Jerry Irvine
The problem isn't just the fed regs, it's the state regs that get triggered by them. What I have is currently "easy access", yet the BATFE claims that it's regulated, but refused to tell me where it says that motors over 62.5g are not PADs. But they only require a 75' safe distance, and will give me an attached garage variance.
The state of Illinois has a 300' distance, no differentiation between LE and HE, and no variance. I have a 1 acre lot. I'd need almost 10 acres to locate a magazine under IL regs. And there's MUCH more to an IL permit than the federal crap. It's more expensive, and if you're niot an IL resident, it's only good for 90 days. NONE of it related to big rockets.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!
Reply to
Bob Kaplow
bob: I think you may be mistaken here..I know the mantra that we must have adults to entice children into the hobby for future benefits, but I don't think that model makes alot of sense. I don't think a large percentage of modelers who return to the hobby return especially because of HPR....I would say a lot return for MPR.....Back in the 70's when I was a kid, the thought of purchasing EF motors was just a dream.....Mom would allow Estes A-D, but nothing larger......There is a lot of rocketry that you can do with EFG size motors, clustering,staging,dual-deployment,etc....By your reasoning the only reason adults come into the hobby(orback into the hobby) is so they can shoot up even larger models than when they were kids...... I didn't return to the hobby because of HPR, in fact most return had nothing to do with it.....
I think you are using a scare tactic here.....
As long as estes markets to wal-mart, then the market will be by default kids and their parents.... and perhaps some of those kids someday may get back into model rocketry as adults, ie the BAR syndrome....
Theres no doubt that the memberships of both of the NAR/TRA will be effected perhaps..... BUT thats why I keep asking the NAR to survey its membership to find out what percentage of their adult membership that are certed L1 or above currently have LEUP...
This number is very important because of published figures we know that the NAR has 80% of its membership as adults. Of these 80%, 80% percent are L1+ certed. Now what percentage of these 80% have a LEUP? If this is a high number then, if 62.5g was in effect tomorrow, it would not effect a large majority of the NAR membership. In fact if this is a high number, than ANY of the BATFE proposed regulations will have no effect on this majority of members. But the NAR refuses (at least it refuses me) to consider adding a voluntary checkbox to the NAR membership or simply surveying their adult membership. Its very simple why the NAR doesn't want to know this number. If the number is like 60%, then its campaign to get its membership to get LEUP has been pretty successful. Also if this number is high, its takes a lot of the rationale away from the NAR to continue its BATFE lawsuit....
On the other hand, if this number is small, then the NAR can rightfully say that if the BATFE proposed regulations become law, it could, it would,it might have a detrimental effect on its adult membership.. But without the NAR knowing this LEUP number, they can't really claim this..... But without us knowing this number, we will really not know what are prospective exposure might be...
The same applies to the TRA..you would also think they would want to know these numbers of their membership, as the same conditions would apply to their membership....The only difference is , if HPR dies tomorrow, then TRA has no rationale for being.....other than their EX/Ar rocketry and I'm sure the CPSC and BATFE will soon take care of that too....So this is life and death for the TRA, not so for the NAR...AT worse, the NAR would shrink by 80%....the budget would drop by 80%...but we would still have all the junior and leader members and also 20%+ adult members.....smaller is not necessarily bad....
We all know why the NAR got into HPR in the 1st place, to attract new adult members with perhaps some kidz along the way.....They saw HPR growing, TRA growing and eceided to get on the bandwagon...eventually.....now since the majority of membership is HPR adults, they have a very vocal component versus the rest of the NAR.....you never hear from or about that part of the NAR......
As I see it, this battle is not really about the future of model rocketry: its about the future of the NAR/TRA and their respective organizations and HPR......
I don;t personally think HPR will die....but I sure hope in defending HPR, that it doesn't kill the NAR....and thats a very real possibility..
shockie B)
Reply to
shockwaveriderz
It doesn't matter how many NAR or TRA members today have LEUPs.
The question is how many new members will even try HPR if the price of entry is getting an LEUP (and perhaps state and local permits as well) before they make that first H flight with their LOC-IV. IT will set the entry hurdle SO high that it will choke off all new blood into the hobby. And without new blood, the hobby (remember I'm talking about HPR here) will effectively die.
Those 80% of the NAR that are adults are paying the freight for the kids. And with a membership of 1000 instead of 5000 Sport Rocketry will wither, and we'll see a huge increase in per member insurance and other costs.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!
Reply to
Bob Kaplow
It was no different when we were a red state. The IL republican party has shot itself in the foot big time. Alas, the bullet went through their heads first. Our last republican governor was a democrat in disguise, and looks like he is on his way to a well deserved retirement in a jail cell.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!
Reply to
Bob Kaplow
I told you so.
But to answer your question with DATA based on my expert opinion,
5%
I am being generous simply because rocketeers are true zealots.
They CAUSED this SHIT
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NAR has an amazing % of ARMCHAIR rocketeers.
Exempt rocketry is expendable. We KNOW this from the pratices and behavior of NAR and TRA for the past 5+ years.
Jerry
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Reply to
Jerry Irvine
comments inline shockie B)
Do you have any verifible proof other than your own personal opinion as to the veracity of the above statement.? No, you don't..... this is pure speculation on your part .........
Lets see we will have legal GH APCP, BP and Hybrid mototrs.....nothing required at all......
I would submit that if the NAR took $25K of the money they want for that appeal, and applied it to "action Paks" that explainined clearly with filled out forms both state and local, and provided these free of charge to its membership that it would be a much easier process.
And Bob, do you have these figues down on paper anywhere? Do you think the NAR has done this financial analysis. I've never seen any actual figures anywhere myself.......Again for all I know, this is hyperbole.......
Show me some actual figures and then we'll talk...... As far as I am aware. the NAR has never actually published any real figures to back these assertions up.
and you make a very major incorrect assumption: that is the majority of current NAR members have a LEUP, they will leave the hobby immediately. Theres no reason for them to leave the hobby because they have already done all the paperwork. The only paperwork that would required would be my "action paks" that you dsistrubute to all NAR sections, place as a pdf on the website,etc.....and then provide any followup services for these new memebers to go thru the BATFE process is they desire to fly above 62.5g.....
The NAR should provide to its membership, a service to interafct and overcome the obstacles to an LEUP.....
shockie B)
Reply to
shockwaveriderz
High Power Rocketry in Texas continues to be strong. If the weather cooperates you can find a HPR launch almost every weekend of the year. Sometimes two or three on the same weekend. New members to the hobby do have to deal with regulations but we do just that, deal with them. Guess what? I had to get a license to operate my GMRS radio and another one for my HAM radio. We deal with it. More and more are getting LEUPs (with storage or contingencies) or working with LEUP holders who sponsor the launch. We also have a growing EX community.
And a lot of us fly Hybrids 100% permit free.
Bob Kaplow wrote:
Alex "I don't care what your tagline says" Mericas
Reply to
Alex Mericas

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