[F-FT] RMS delay question/comment



You stated it was zero tolerance. I gave an example of a "constant flow" of transactions.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Ray said nothing about "zero tolerance".
Are you still high on glue?
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

used
prove
limit
criminal.
No, breaking the law makes a person a criminal. Being convicted in court simply makes you a convicted criminal. Here are the definitions, straight from Webster's dictionary:
Main Entry: [2]criminal Function: noun Date: circa 1626 1 : one who has committed a crime 2 : a person who has been convicted of a crime
BTW, I haven't had a speeding ticket in several years despite the fact that I routinely exceed posted speed limits. Does that mean speeding is legal? No, it just means that you can often get away with it. If you tried speeding during your driver's test, you would not get your license. Submitting motors for certification without meeting the legal requirements is like speeding during your driver's test.
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By that definition and given the complexity and sheer width of jurisdiction of so many laws, we are near constant criminals while "living life".
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Once or twice :-)
I kept asking because Ray initially made it sound like he did it (AT delay mods) all the time. At least until now, this was not permitted at NAR/TRA launches. I guess Ray flies on hos own a lot, without the benefit of NAR/TRA insurance.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin Historical Review of Pennsylvania. 1759
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Bob Kaplow wrote:

delay
I do.

Technically, that depends on how you define "permitted". I've seen launches where delay mods are a recommended procedure.

Correct. I do very little flying at club launches.
t
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-----snip-----

I won't know how accurate the sim is until I count the altimeter beeps after the first flight. Up to now RockSim has been quite accurate in its simulations of other rocket's I've flown. Part of the enjoyment I get from rocketry is designing a rocket, running simulations and then flying to see how accurate my simulation and construction skills turn out...and if I am still restricted to only those delay times available through the use of the DAT for my Pro38 I will certainly be ejecting the streamer at apogee using channel one of the altimeter.

-----snip-----
Quite to the contrary, we have evidence that CTI's initial approach to variable delay setting was rejected by TRA (anecdotally because ONE individual opposed the concept). I'm advocating something similar to Consumer Reports or Good Housekeep testing. They don't have any agenda, they simply test and report. Manufacturer's invent something new, submit it to the testing authority and await the results. The testing authority tests to see if the product reliably meets the manufacturer's claim.
Then, the hobby associations can individually decide whether or not to allow that technology to be used at launches they sponsor.
But that's not my point. What I am driving at here is I *should* be allowed to modify a delay grain and still be within the Safety Code (which itself need to be overhauled to match the technologies currently in routine use.

Nope. This is no conspiracy. They do have separate agendas, that is why there are TWO organizations in the US instead of just one. For the record I declined to renew my AMA membership when that organization began moving in a direction I didn't think was appropriate. Now I understand they are trying to sell movies on DVD to their membership. What does THAT have to do with model airplanes ?

Yes, I do declaim nicely, don't I ?

Try Section Two of the Safety Code. Here it is for your reading pleasure:
MOTORS: I will use only commercially-made, NAR-certified model rocket motors in the manner recommended by the manufacturer. I will not alter the model rocket motor, its parts, or ingredients in any way.
See the fine print "not alter the model rocket motor" ? It's printed on the instruction sheet that come with every pack of motors.

I agree with that statement. Now we need to implement it by changing the Safety Code, certification rules and attitudes.
John<==if I have to lie to an RSO, I'm doing something wrong !
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I love how you "get it" and are not disuaded by the massive follow-on rmr banter TRYING to distract you from the truth.
Jerry

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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wrote:

The associations are always looking for members that want to volunteer their efforts. You can do so and make a difference.

What's the big deal? It was discussed and acted upon. Maybe not in one shot.
The associations recognise each other's testing. I think that is as good as your Consumers Reports idea. Also, I think changing that becomes a NFPA thing.
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John Bonnett wrote:

more
much
for
beeps
I
available
be
would
At
to
something
testing
manufacturer's
More likely, an independent testing authority would simply turn down anything that didn't fit the existing standard.

currently
But you can influence the organizations to make any changes you feel are necessary. Remember, the orgs are run by the members, for the members. Of course, that still doesn't mean you will _always_ get your way. But you'd have no chance at all to influencing an independent testing authority.

I think it would be more accurate to say that they each have their own focus. Their agendas are dictated by the members, and by the realities of insurance and regulatory issues.

Kaplow's
The safety code is stopping you? How? Seems to me, you're stopping yourself.

to
one
needs
that
delay
available
necessary.
Ok, so have you contacted the orgs and discussed making the changes you desire?

Yeah -- you're flying at the wrong launch! ;)
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-----snip redux-----

A little light on the reading skills tonight, Ray ? I thought I had clearly defined my recommendation: an independent testing authority receives samples from a manufacturer, tests them according to the manufacturer's claims and provides a test report. Who said anything about a standard ? If I should choose to submit a new RMS powered with Draino and Tang which I claim has an impulse of ten million Newton-seconds per 50 grams of propellant, then they should test it to see if it in fact produces that power level. Should their testing determine the motor in fact produces absolutely no thrust, then that is what they should report.
-----snip-----

No you can't. In my experience hobby organizations are run by a small clique of members who push the organization in the direction which they belive it shoud go according to their own personal agendas. Again I cite the recent, regretable decisions made by the AMA Board of Directors.
An independent agency which simply tests and reports results would be a much better system in my opinion.
-----snip-----

Seems to me you are advocating intentional violations of the Safety Code.
I believe it would be a waste of innocent electrons to continue this discussion with you.
John<==Rules are rules. Bad rules should be identified and changed.
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John Bonnett wrote:

And also very, very expensive. An independent testing lab would not be run by volunteers, but expensive, "for profit" lab and employees.
That is why the orgs do their own testing.
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Why not.
You are wrong about almost EVERYTHING else, why not this?
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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-----snippage maximo-----

Why do you leap to the assumption that a "for profit" lab needs to be involved ? The good Doc is already providing excellent material testing reports on his <hears Choir> re-born site. Why can't motor testing and certification be handled the same way ? I'm not insisting on having NIST traceability (although it _would_ be nice).
However, to save a few hundred thousand packet hops, I'll agree with you, provided the orgs agree to test *everything* submitted to them and publish the results without injecting editorial bias into the reports.
In other words, regardless of whether or not the organization in question regards a new technology as appropriate for recreational model rocketry, they are required to test any and all materials submitted to determine whether or not they meet the manufacturer's claims.
Common sense needs to be injected here...they should be free to reject my submission of a uranium hexaflouride / NO2 hybrid motor. But, they should be required to test my submission of delay grains whose delay can be shortened by one second per 1/32nd inch of drilling.
John<==let's level the playing field here !
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It is CRITICAL for him to improperly recharacterize the debate as a unsuccessful means to either "win" or "make you lose".
It is dishonest and bipolar, but a pattern and practice.
Jerry

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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John Bonnett wrote:

testing
and
I don't know, why don't you try setting up an independent testing lab and see how it works out? Oh, let me guess... you're another one of these folks who has lots of big ideas, but expect someone else to impliment them.

them...
Define "everything".

reports.
What "editorial bias" has ever been injected into a motor test report? Please cite a specific example.

question
rocketry,
determine
Why should hobby orgs have to waste time testing materials which are inappropriate for their specific field?

reject
they
Why? Are you saying that one of those technologies is inappropriate for recreational model rocketry, and the other one isn't? What gives you the right to make that determination, and not the orgs?

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Everything.
There are criteria for acceptance. Not everything submitted has to PASS.
The system breaks down when materials submitted are "lost" "en masse" or not tested at all.
Or the rules are changed 5 minutes AFTER submission and ACCEPTANCE of samples.
Jerry

Plenty of examples cited on rmr. Search for posts by Iz and Cato. John Cato was TRA TMT testing chair that got TRA approved by NFPA. Fact. He cited examples of misstated TRA TMT motor certs.

You are unqualified.

Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

to be

testing
lab
with
So someone could submit something that doesn't qualify as a model or high power rocket motor, and this hypothetical testing agency would be forced to test it?

report?
John
He
No one has ever posted any examples of "editorial bias" being injected into a motor test report. Even the ridiculous, unsupported accusations made by Cato had nothing to do with "editorial bias" in test reports. The motor test reports merely state the data for the motors that were tested, nothing more.
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You coming up with a "highly unlikely" scenario does not invalidate what I said.
For Ray:
What if the army submitted a nuke to Tripoli and detonated it when it was on the test stand? Would they lose the entire $500 load cell deposit or only $100 for the actual cost of the load cell damage?

The chairman of the test committee posted several.
Your denial of the obvious notwithstanding.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Ask any smaller motor manufacturer how long they've had to wait for TMT to test their motors. Like SkyRipper, who finally got their stuff tested.
Where's the DATA for the currently certified motors, including delay accuracy?
Why were USR motors decertified immediately, while Kosdon motors were given several months to be used up. Why aren't other vendors who produce motors whose certs have expired been similarly dealth with?
For that matter where's the test data from the USR motors that TMT pulled the certs on. If they were so bad, you'd think TMT would post the data to show the world how bad Jerry's stuff was in the first place.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Vulcans believe peace should not depend on force. -- Amanda, "Journey to Babel," stardate 3842.3
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