here we go again: NAR vs TRA: clash of the titans

shockwaveriderz wrote:


Not exactly. A person with a Class 1 or 2 license can supervise unlicensed flyers. That's how most folks get by.
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IMO - the two aren't close. It doesn't make sense to me. Also, if someone wants to fly a rocket of a particular level, they fly it as if they had the cert anyway so what's the diff?
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:39:26 GMT, "shockwaveriderz"

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I largely agree.
You overstated the number of people doing HPR nationwide since there are lots of people who have joined both and also many "armchair" rocketeers.
As for CSFM not testing (what else is new at TRA?), if TRA wanted to simply adopt CSFM approvals they could. They did so with NAR and with CAR.
But I for one know why they will not. Yet another "Jerry-rule".
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shockwaveriderz wrote:

I think you're misconstruing the discussion there. So far it hasn't devolved to that level.

Correct.
Amateur rocketry is NOT the same as TRA EX. EX is designed specifically for TRA launches and limited to certain propellent types in order to meet insurance requirements. AR is not.

Not quite true. There are some regs that affect Amateur Rocketry. For instance in CA you need a CSFM Class 1 or 2 pyro permit and you must meet specific launch requirements such as providing a bunker or blockhouse. In some states, Amateur Rocketry is treated as "unlicensed pryotechnics".

There are reasons for that, insurance being one of them. Don't like it? No problem. Go fly AR on your own. Or start your own org and see how far you get.

So?
CSFM pyro licensing is not an "organization".

I don't consider that a penalty, and it's certainly not a requirement. If you have a state license you can still do HPR on your own.

It's their event, they can make the rules. You don't have to like it. You're free to launch elsewhere.

Bull. Neither org prohibits anyone from engaging in Amateur rocketry.

I think you're tilting at windmills here. There are no motor manufacturers who have CSFM approvals without TRA/NAR certification. It's highly unlikely that there ever would be. Why would a manufacturer go to the trouble and expense of getting CSFM approval on motors without ever getting them TRA/NAR certified? Especially since this would mean making some kind of special arrangement to have the motors tested outside of TRA/NAR? Currently the California State Fire Marshall accepts TRA/NAR testing.

Again, it's their event... And you are trying to stir up something over an imaginary scenario that will never happen in the real world.

Then why are you wasting your time making posts like this?

False. Many companies that make rocket motors never go through TRA/NAR, and probably never even heard of those orgs. Thiokol, AeroJet, etc. Of course, those companies (and their customers) are not free of rules and regs, in fact they have much stricter regs than the hobby orgs do.

TRA/NAR are not "gatekeepers", since as you've pointed out there are other ways to do rocketry outside of these two orgs. What the orgs provide is an easy way to do certain forms of rocketry legally.
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Stop saying "CSFM approval" or "CSFM certification". CSFM only "Classifies" pyrotechnic devices into various classes to indicate their legal sale/storage/use. If they are not classified, they are "Unclassified Pyrotechnic Devices" and seriously illegal.
CSFM Classification does not meet NFPA testing and certification requirements.
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thats because California doesn't recognize the NFPA codes.....
shockie B)
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shreadvector wrote:

Whatever. Whether you call it "classification" or "approval", is just a matter of semantics. The end result is the same -- you can't sell motors in CA without it.

Correct.
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I think people are misinterpreting what I am trying to say. Let me see if I can be clearer.
If a person wants to do HPR in the state of CA, they have to get a Pyrotech license.
If a person wants to do HPR in the state of CA, they do not have to :
1. be a member of either the NAR or TRA 2. Be "certified" by either org.
What I am wondering is WHY does a person who lives in CA, who wants to do HPR, get his/her CA Pyrotech License to do HPR, but the NAR nor TRA currently recognizes the CA Pyrotech license as valid ?
What I am suggesting is that the NAR/TRA should recognize the CA state Pyrotech license the same way they recognize each others certs. I realize that the CA Pyrotech license has no "concept" of certification, in the context that the NAR/TRA does, but the point is the CA Pyrotech license is a defacto "certfication" as valid as the TRA/NAR cert.
Right now a person who wants to fly Hpr IN CA, at a NAR/TRA venue, is also required to have a NAR/TRA cert, ie be a NAR/TRS member...
shockie B)

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shockwaveriderz wrote:

You are deeply confused, Shockie. The orgs "recognize" the CSFM license, just as much as anyone else would. It's a state permit, nothing more, nothing less. It is not HPR certification in compliance with NFPA codes or TRA/NAR rules.

It's not a cert.

No it isn't. It's just a state permit.

Tough. It's their event, they set the rules. Why are you even whining about it when you live clear across the country??
No one in CA is "required" to have a NAR/TRA cert. Anyone with a CSFM license can do rocketry on their own, at their own launch, without ever joining either of the national orgs.
T
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shockwaveriderz wrote:

That is not correct.

True
Apples and oranges.

It's not the same thing at all.

How is that different from any other state?

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then what is the purpose of the pyrotech license? if not required to do HPR in CA?
shockie B)

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shockwaveriderz wrote:

There are three purposes for the CSFM rocketry license:
1. Taxation. 2. It covers the Fire Marshal's ass, politically. 3. It fulfills the inbred need of Ca. politicians to have every damn thing from cradle to grave regulated.
s
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Very few ROC attendees have Pyro-Op 3 permits. Are they each in violation?

TRA exempts itself (I dunno how) from OSFM regs by claiming all flyers are operating under a single permit.
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

TRA is a national organization, not a person. Pyro ops licenses can only be obtained by individuals, not organizations. By the same token they cannot "exempt" themselves from something that doesn't apply. I can only assume you are referring to individuals who happen to be TRA members, and just made the leap from "individual" to "org" in another lame attempt to smear TRA.

Assuming you mean CSFM regs here.

Just as you say you've done at your Amateur launches. And same as Frank does at Perchlorathon.
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Then why does TRA have a "public display permit"?

Yet they do.

But that is entirely different. A Pyro-op 2 (not 3) CAN oversee the operations of others. Furthermore NONE of the motors operated are "HPR certified" by either OSFM or TRA. It is an actual Amateur rocket launch. Which as you yourself have pointed out is entirely legal and with far fewer restrictions.
Constantly bringing up off-topic matters as "personal attacks" not only does not add to your arguement. It establishes how infantile and intellectually vacant you are.
Thanks.
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Apples and oranges, Jerry. It's like the diffence between a driver's license and vehicle registration. A vehicle can be registered to a company or organization, but that company or organization can't get a driver's license. Only individuals can do that.

Repeating an untruth doesn't make it true.

That's exactly what I said.

not less. For instance you are required to have a bunker or blockhouse with overhead protection of a certain strength. Also, the only person allowed to load the motor is the person with the license.
The main difference is that there's little in the way of a "pre-emptive enforcement mechanism". A person could do AR all they want without a permit and without following any rules, and until they screw up and get caught there's nothing in the law to prevent it. You don't need a permit or certification or anything else to buy the materials to make motors.

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Perhaps you can EXPLAIN the difference for me then.
Thanks.

Drivel snipped.
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

An organization can get a permit for a pyrotechnic display, but it can't get a pyro ops license. The display permit applies to an event. The pyro ops license applies to an individual.
If you still don't understand, please contact the CSFM and have them explain it to you.

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I know it is possible and has actually happened because I did it.

Because they are banned and unable to get TRA to comply.

They are gatekeepers in the context of NFPA which applies in some 32 states.
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

When did you manufacture motors that had CSFM approval?
Specifically which motors?

Who is "they"?

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