here we go again: NAR vs TRA: clash of the titans

Over on TRF there is a moderated thread going on about whose dick is bigger: either the NAR or the TRA, so I posted what follows:

I guess my question is: why does it have to be the NAR or TRA? And why is that our only choices? I mean in California, there you don't have to be a member of either organization to fly HPR. You do have to get a California State 3rd Class Pyro License. Same with AR aka as TRA EX. AR is completely and totally unregulated as far as I know in all 50 states. You don't need to be a member of either Org nor be some specific Level to do AR. If you want to do AR, you just do it.

And therein lies the problem as I see it. Anybody can legally do AR , but the NAR nor the TRA will allow you to do AR; TRA will allow you to do AR as EX if you join the TRA first. Its the same situation for Model Rocketry. You don't have to be a member of ANY organization to do model and large model rocketry. And the vast majority of people who do model rocketry are not members of either ORG and never will be either. Neither the NAR nor the TRA as far as I know, recognize the State of California's Pyro License as a legitimate organization in which you can goto NAR or TRA launches, without being a member. SO California modelers are penalized by having to be a member of 1 of the 2 national orgs, in their own state!, before they can fly at NAR/TRA events in that state. And although as I pointed out AR is completely legal in all 50 states, if you do AR , neither the NAR or TRA again will allow you to do that form of rocketry at all, and TRA will but again only if you are a member first . California modelers are also penalized by the fact that the NAR/TRA does not recognize the California State Fire Marshall's "certification" of rocket motors . SO if you were a California manufacturer of model or hpr motors, and you got them okayed by the CSFM, you could then legally sell them in California; but since the NAR/TRA doesn't recognize the CSFM as a cert agency, those motors could not be used anywhere else in the United States. And they couldn't be used at NAR/TRA events in California!

I am not suggesting that what this world needs is another or even a new rocketry organization. 2 organizations competing fro the same small slice is more than enough. What the rocketry community needs to recognize is that the NAR/TRA jointly ONLY represent approx 8300 people nationwide. Think about that for a second. In a country of almost 300 million there are 8300 members TOTAL in our 2 national orgs(4500/3800). And of that 8300 figure perhaps

6500 at most are certified to do HPR.

The number of people who do plain old model rocketry year in and year out number in the hundreds of thousands if not millions; the number of people who do AR number , well we have no way of knowing this number but I would assume at least a few thousand. And the vast majority of these people never hear about the NAR/TRA nor care.

So the next time you start arguing the + and - of which Org is "better or best".. keep the above stats in mind. When it comes right down to it, BOTH the NAR/TRA is pretty insignificant in the great scheme of things.

The only real significance the NAR/TRA has is basically set themselves up as the "gatekeepers" ; i.e., If you want to sell rocket motors in this country, you have to go through the NAR/TRA. If you want to do HPR, you have to go through the NAR/TRA.

shockie B)

Reply to
shockwaveriderz
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Some not so small comments;

CSFM Classification of motors is *NOT* "Certification". They do not certify the overall performance of motors. I believe I was told (by a MAJOR MR and HPR motor manufacturer) many years ago that they test them to see that they do not "blow up" and that the delay time is somewhat accurate.

TRA and NAR can decide what they allow at their activities so that their insurance is still valid. If they do not want to *or* if their insurance carrier will not allow them to participate in certain acitivities, then form your own organization and get your own insurance. Go national. Become the King of this new organization. It will become so powerful that it will devour the others. You will rule the Earth.

Or, you can relax and make a sandwich (or a Hot Pocket - they're delicious) and watch TV.

__________________

-Fred Shecter NAR 20117

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Reply to
shreadvector

First off, You don't need a Ca. pyro op license to fly model rockets as long as the motors are CSFM approved,.

Secondly, You don't have to be a member of an Org. to fly model rockets.

Thirdly, CSFM does not test or certify motors for performance or functionality. For a fee, the CSFM "approves for use" in Ca.

Fourthly, Why are You perpetuating this ridiculous thread topic?

Reply to
Dave Grayvis

I largely agree.

You overstated the number of people doing HPR nationwide since there are lots of people who have joined both and also many "armchair" rocketeers.

As for CSFM not testing (what else is new at TRA?), if TRA wanted to simply adopt CSFM approvals they could. They did so with NAR and with CAR.

But I for one know why they will not. Yet another "Jerry-rule".

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

All I'm saying is that the NAR/TRA should recognize people from California that have a Pyrotech License, just as they recognize each others cert levels. The NAR/TRA recognize each other's cert levels , why do they require a California person to Cert when California LAw provides for a license( the same as a HPR cert level) ?

shockie B)

Reply to
shockwaveriderz

I'm sorry, but where does it say in the California law that the certifications are even remotely the same? The point of the California law is mostly a) to provide a background check, and b) to provide money to the state. There is no equivalence to (for example) the requirement to actually safely fly rockets. They do have a written test, which is probably roughly equivalent to the L2 certification test, but there is no actual 'field proof' that is done. There is a requirement for 5 recommendations, but these are essentially character references.

The only change that might really be useful would be to allow Pyro licensees to bypass the L2 written test -- but what's the point? The L2 written test from NAR/TRA is much easier to get/take/pass (logistically), and if you already have the Cal pyro license it shouldn't be a problem anyway. NAR/TRA aren't asking for any fees for this, so again, to ask for an exemption is to ask them to do more work (modifying the system and allowing the exemptions) than is necessary, particularly for a volunteer organization.

And frankly, I believe (and I'm going through the process right now) that it's easier to get the NAR/TRA cert, and then to use that as part of your 'experience' recommended to get the Cal Pyro license.

David Erbas-White

Reply to
David Erbas-White

I think you're misconstruing the discussion there. So far it hasn't devolved to that level.

Correct.

Amateur rocketry is NOT the same as TRA EX. EX is designed specifically for TRA launches and limited to certain propellent types in order to meet insurance requirements. AR is not.

Not quite true. There are some regs that affect Amateur Rocketry. For instance in CA you need a CSFM Class 1 or 2 pyro permit and you must meet specific launch requirements such as providing a bunker or blockhouse. In some states, Amateur Rocketry is treated as "unlicensed pryotechnics".

There are reasons for that, insurance being one of them. Don't like it? No problem. Go fly AR on your own. Or start your own org and see how far you get.

So?

CSFM pyro licensing is not an "organization".

I don't consider that a penalty, and it's certainly not a requirement. If you have a state license you can still do HPR on your own.

It's their event, they can make the rules. You don't have to like it. You're free to launch elsewhere.

Bull. Neither org prohibits anyone from engaging in Amateur rocketry.

I think you're tilting at windmills here. There are no motor manufacturers who have CSFM approvals without TRA/NAR certification. It's highly unlikely that there ever would be. Why would a manufacturer go to the trouble and expense of getting CSFM approval on motors without ever getting them TRA/NAR certified? Especially since this would mean making some kind of special arrangement to have the motors tested outside of TRA/NAR? Currently the California State Fire Marshall accepts TRA/NAR testing.

Again, it's their event... And you are trying to stir up something over an imaginary scenario that will never happen in the real world.

Then why are you wasting your time making posts like this?

False. Many companies that make rocket motors never go through TRA/NAR, and probably never even heard of those orgs. Thiokol, AeroJet, etc. Of course, those companies (and their customers) are not free of rules and regs, in fact they have much stricter regs than the hobby orgs do.

TRA/NAR are not "gatekeepers", since as you've pointed out there are other ways to do rocketry outside of these two orgs. What the orgs provide is an easy way to do certain forms of rocketry legally.

Reply to
raydunakin

Stop saying "CSFM approval" or "CSFM certification". CSFM only "Classifies" pyrotechnic devices into various classes to indicate their legal sale/storage/use. If they are not classified, they are "Unclassified Pyrotechnic Devices" and seriously illegal.

CSFM Classification does not meet NFPA testing and certification requirements.

Reply to
shreadvector

thats because California doesn't recognize the NFPA codes.....

shockie B)

Reply to
shockwaveriderz

I think people are misinterpreting what I am trying to say. Let me see if I can be clearer.

If a person wants to do HPR in the state of CA, they have to get a Pyrotech license.

If a person wants to do HPR in the state of CA, they do not have to :

  1. be a member of either the NAR or TRA
  2. Be "certified" by either org.

What I am wondering is WHY does a person who lives in CA, who wants to do HPR, get his/her CA Pyrotech License to do HPR, but the NAR nor TRA currently recognizes the CA Pyrotech license as valid ?

What I am suggesting is that the NAR/TRA should recognize the CA state Pyrotech license the same way they recognize each others certs. I realize that the CA Pyrotech license has no "concept" of certification, in the context that the NAR/TRA does, but the point is the CA Pyrotech license is a defacto "certfication" as valid as the TRA/NAR cert.

Right now a person who wants to fly Hpr IN CA, at a NAR/TRA venue, is also required to have a NAR/TRA cert, ie be a NAR/TRS member...

shockie B)

Reply to
shockwaveriderz

Whatever. Whether you call it "classification" or "approval", is just a matter of semantics. The end result is the same -- you can't sell motors in CA without it.

Correct.

Reply to
raydunakin

A Ca. pyro op license is not the same as an HPR certification at all, not even close.

Besides there's less than a dozen people with Ca. Pyro Op licenses.

Reply to
Dave Grayvis

You are deeply confused, Shockie. The orgs "recognize" the CSFM license, just as much as anyone else would. It's a state permit, nothing more, nothing less. It is not HPR certification in compliance with NFPA codes or TRA/NAR rules.

It's not a cert.

No it isn't. It's just a state permit.

Tough. It's their event, they set the rules. Why are you even whining about it when you live clear across the country??

No one in CA is "required" to have a NAR/TRA cert. Anyone with a CSFM license can do rocketry on their own, at their own launch, without ever joining either of the national orgs.

T
Reply to
raydunakin

That is not correct.

True

Apples and oranges.

It's not the same thing at all.

How is that different from any other state?

Reply to
Dave Grayvis

so does that mean that there are only 12 people in all of CA that are doing HPR?

I mean isn't a requiremnt to do HPR in CA a pyrotech license?

We don;t hav ehundreds of NAR/TRA members running aound in CA doing HPR without a CA pyrotech license do we?

shockie B)

Reply to
shockwaveriderz

then what is the purpose of the pyrotech license? if not required to do HPR in CA?

shockie B)

Reply to
shockwaveriderz

No, A single Pyro Op licensee must be present and responsible.

See answer above.

No, just jerry.

Reply to
Dave Grayvis

so what does this mean:

§1033. License Required.

No person shall possess, receive, transport, store, or launch any experimental high power rocket motor without first securing a valid license as a Pyrotechnic Operator-- Rockets First, Second, or Third Class from the State Fire Marshal. No person shall sell an experimental high power rocket motor to any person unless the seller possesses a va1id license as a wholesaler or retailer under this chapter.

Authority: Section 12552 Health and Safety Code

Reference: Secti>

Reply to
shockwaveriderz

At a launch, there must be SOMEONE with a CA pyro license. Everyone else is their 'assistant'.

David Erbas-White

Reply to
David Erbas-White

Just out of curiousity, what in the heck is your point??? If you're not in CA, what are you worried about???

In order to GET a pyro license, you must have worked WITH a pyro licensee as their 'assistant'. Their is no license needed to be an 'assistant'.

Of course, you're also ignoring that the California definition of 'experimental high power' is what the rest of the world calls 'normal high power'... But that's an argument for another thread...

David Erbas-White

Reply to
David Erbas-White

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