here we go again: NAR vs TRA: clash of the titans

Over on TRF there is a moderated thread going on about whose dick is bigger: either the NAR or the TRA, so I posted what follows:
I guess my question is: why does it have to be the NAR or TRA? And why is that our only choices? I mean in California, there you don't have to be a member of either organization to fly HPR. You do have to get a California State 3rd Class Pyro License. Same with AR aka as TRA EX. AR is completely and totally unregulated as far as I know in all 50 states. You don't need to be a member of either Org nor be some specific Level to do AR. If you want to do AR, you just do it.
And therein lies the problem as I see it. Anybody can legally do AR , but the NAR nor the TRA will allow you to do AR; TRA will allow you to do AR as EX if you join the TRA first. Its the same situation for Model Rocketry. You don't have to be a member of ANY organization to do model and large model rocketry. And the vast majority of people who do model rocketry are not members of either ORG and never will be either. Neither the NAR nor the TRA as far as I know, recognize the State of California's Pyro License as a legitimate organization in which you can goto NAR or TRA launches, without being a member. SO California modelers are penalized by having to be a member of 1 of the 2 national orgs, in their own state!, before they can fly at NAR/TRA events in that state. And although as I pointed out AR is completely legal in all 50 states, if you do AR , neither the NAR or TRA again will allow you to do that form of rocketry at all, and TRA will but again only if you are a member first . California modelers are also penalized by the fact that the NAR/TRA does not recognize the California State Fire Marshall's "certification" of rocket motors . SO if you were a California manufacturer of model or hpr motors, and you got them okayed by the CSFM, you could then legally sell them in California; but since the NAR/TRA doesn't recognize the CSFM as a cert agency, those motors could not be used anywhere else in the United States. And they couldn't be used at NAR/TRA events in California!
I am not suggesting that what this world needs is another or even a new rocketry organization. 2 organizations competing fro the same small slice is more than enough. What the rocketry community needs to recognize is that the NAR/TRA jointly ONLY represent approx 8300 people nationwide. Think about that for a second. In a country of almost 300 million there are 8300 members TOTAL in our 2 national orgs(4500/3800). And of that 8300 figure perhaps 6500 at most are certified to do HPR.
The number of people who do plain old model rocketry year in and year out number in the hundreds of thousands if not millions; the number of people who do AR number , well we have no way of knowing this number but I would assume at least a few thousand. And the vast majority of these people never hear about the NAR/TRA nor care.
So the next time you start arguing the + and - of which Org is "better or best".. keep the above stats in mind. When it comes right down to it, BOTH the NAR/TRA is pretty insignificant in the great scheme of things.
The only real significance the NAR/TRA has is basically set themselves up as the "gatekeepers" ; i.e., If you want to sell rocket motors in this country, you have to go through the NAR/TRA. If you want to do HPR, you have to go through the NAR/TRA.
shockie B)
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Some not so small comments;
CSFM Classification of motors is *NOT* "Certification". They do not certify the overall performance of motors. I believe I was told (by a MAJOR MR and HPR motor manufacturer) many years ago that they test them to see that they do not "blow up" and that the delay time is somewhat accurate.
TRA and NAR can decide what they allow at their activities so that their insurance is still valid. If they do not want to *or* if their insurance carrier will not allow them to participate in certain acitivities, then form your own organization and get your own insurance. Go national. Become the King of this new organization. It will become so powerful that it will devour the others. You will rule the Earth.
Or, you can relax and make a sandwich (or a Hot Pocket - they're delicious) and watch TV.
__________________ -Fred Shecter NAR 20117 http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsassZshreadvector
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shockwaveriderz wrote:

First off, You don't need a Ca. pyro op license to fly model rockets as long as the motors are CSFM approved,.
Secondly, You don't have to be a member of an Org. to fly model rockets.
Thirdly, CSFM does not test or certify motors for performance or functionality. For a fee, the CSFM "approves for use" in Ca.
Fourthly, Why are You perpetuating this ridiculous thread topic?

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All I'm saying is that the NAR/TRA should recognize people from California that have a Pyrotech License, just as they recognize each others cert levels. The NAR/TRA recognize each other's cert levels , why do they require a California person to Cert when California LAw provides for a license( the same as a HPR cert level) ?
shockie B)

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shockwaveriderz wrote:

I'm sorry, but where does it say in the California law that the certifications are even remotely the same? The point of the California law is mostly a) to provide a background check, and b) to provide money to the state. There is no equivalence to (for example) the requirement to actually safely fly rockets. They do have a written test, which is probably roughly equivalent to the L2 certification test, but there is no actual 'field proof' that is done. There is a requirement for 5 recommendations, but these are essentially character references.
The only change that might really be useful would be to allow Pyro licensees to bypass the L2 written test -- but what's the point? The L2 written test from NAR/TRA is much easier to get/take/pass (logistically), and if you already have the Cal pyro license it shouldn't be a problem anyway. NAR/TRA aren't asking for any fees for this, so again, to ask for an exemption is to ask them to do more work (modifying the system and allowing the exemptions) than is necessary, particularly for a volunteer organization.
And frankly, I believe (and I'm going through the process right now) that it's easier to get the NAR/TRA cert, and then to use that as part of your 'experience' recommended to get the Cal Pyro license.
David Erbas-White
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shockwaveriderz wrote:

A Ca. pyro op license is not the same as an HPR certification at all, not even close.
Besides there's less than a dozen people with Ca. Pyro Op licenses.

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so does that mean that there are only 12 people in all of CA that are doing HPR?
I mean isn't a requiremnt to do HPR in CA a pyrotech license?
We don;t hav ehundreds of NAR/TRA members running aound in CA doing HPR without a CA pyrotech license do we?
shockie B)

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shockwaveriderz wrote:

No, A single Pyro Op licensee must be present and responsible.

See answer above.

No, just jerry.

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so what does this mean:
1033. License Required.
No person shall possess, receive, transport, store, or launch any experimental high power rocket motor without first securing a valid license as a Pyrotechnic Operator-- Rockets First, Second, or Third Class from the State Fire Marshal. No person shall sell an experimental high power rocket motor to any person unless the seller possesses a va1id license as a wholesaler or retailer under this chapter.
Authority: Section 12552 Health and Safety Code
Reference: Section 12552 Health and Safety Code

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shockwaveriderz wrote:

Just out of curiousity, what in the heck is your point??? If you're not in CA, what are you worried about???
In order to GET a pyro license, you must have worked WITH a pyro licensee as their 'assistant'. Their is no license needed to be an 'assistant'.
Of course, you're also ignoring that the California definition of 'experimental high power' is what the rest of the world calls 'normal high power'... But that's an argument for another thread...
David Erbas-White
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ok so you are telling me that there are 12 people in all of CA that have pyrotech rockets license class3, the lowest, and that the rest of the potentially hundreds of people who do HPR are assistants to these 12 people? So 1 of these 12 people are at every HPR venue held in CA?
So your are tellin me that every HPR launch in CA, one of these 12 pyrotech 3rd class license holders are on site, which allows everybody else to act as an "assistant?
I'm just trying to understand. I was under the impression that everybody that wanted to fly HPR required at least a pyrotech class3. Now you are telling me in reality there are only 12 actual people that have the required licences, and everybody else functions as an "assistant". And that every time HPr is flown inCA, one of these 12 people are on site?
shockie B)

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shockwaveriderz wrote:

Give it a rest.
You're taking one persons response that there are 'only 12' licensees in California.
Think it through...
If you still believe it, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in...
David Erbas-White
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It is approximately correct. When I was at the OSFM last year, the number was a bit higher but not much.

No David, it's true. COSFM regs are the most unworkable regs I have ever seen, yet there they are.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Why were you there? To discuss your felony conviction?

If you know the number, be specific, and provide a veriable cite.
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I think that is what he is saying, however misguided he is.

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:25:58 -0700, David Erbas-White

Maybe he's carrying on the mosaic for Iz.
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license
I would venture to guess it means the same as a LEUP.
the Pryo guys doing fireworks do it the same way.
The Legal person doing the Possess, receiver, transport, storing and launch of the motor is the pyro op.
The person with the rocket is the conveyance for the sauce, errr. motor..
Grave or Jerry can jump in and explain better.
A phrase out of Galaxy quest comes to mind, explain it like....
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It clearly means EVERY TRA HPR launch in CA is grossly illegal.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

I guess the felon wants to confess to his crimes.
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shockwaveriderz wrote:

At a launch, there must be SOMEONE with a CA pyro license. Everyone else is their 'assistant'.
David Erbas-White
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