HPR Magazine

Jerry Irvine wrote:


I hear that you have to be sure to knead _all_ the air bubbles out of your C4 before you use it in a campfire...
-dave w
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Iz wrote: << but a LEUP holder (vendor or otherwise) can give a motor to a non-LEUPer (provided he is not among the list of "prohibited persons", and supervise your use of it as you described >>
That's exactly what I'm referring to. Whether the vendor calls it a motor sale or "sale for services" is irrelevent -- the fact remains that flyers can still buy and fly at the site if they have a vendor. The rest is just semantics.
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Motors are EXEMPT explosives per 27 CFR 555.141-a-8
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry,
I (and everyone else) know what you think. I was asking Iz's interpretation. It seems to me, from reading Wickman's website, that Wickman does not agree. I'm trying to cull that out - but no one will answer a direct question.
-- David

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Motors are EXEMPT explosives per 27 CFR 555.141-a-8

No enforcement at all.

Yet it is there, but as I claim and as omitted in the NAR/ATF lawsuit, ONLY when containing 1.1D AP which is 45 microns or smaller which IS on the explosives list.

Unless NAR and TRA fail or refuse to claim the above defined position.

UNLESS having a burning rate uinder 2.2mm/s. ELSE 4.1 Flammable Solid.

You can store flammable solids, oxidizers, flammable liquids, corrosives in residential areas up toa certain weight limit, typically 500 pounds or so (one drum) (each).

Motors are EXEMPT explosives per 27 CFR 555.141-a-8
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

not in New York City you can't (store anywhere near 500 lbs)
NYC has its own explosives and fire codes that supersede the SFM
sorry :(
- iz
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The amounts are set by COUNTY hazmat and the CITY can but most do not restrict it further. NYC and LAX and CHI and ATL may be exceptions.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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"David W." wrote:

What if your vendor is the "approved contingency storage"? I.e., he will store and transport it for the purchaser to the place where it is to be ignited.
-dave w
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sounds good to me.... perhaps this is a service that some vendors might want to make available for its customer base... I suppose they could even charge a small storage and transporation fee for the service.... Are there any vendors that provide this service? If Not, why not?
shockie B)

buying
a
approved
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Shock wrote: << Are there any vendors that provide this service? If Not, why not? >>
Our local vendor will not _store_ motors for other people because he doesn't have the room to spare. But we can still buy and fly at the site.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:

Motors are EXEMPT explosives per 27 CFR 555.141-a-8

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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jerry: why do you call motors exempt explosives? I thought motors could not explode? Isn't this one of the crutches the NAR/TRA lawsuit is based upon? This position is sure gonna disappoint a lot of true believers. have you finally come around to the "dark side", ie the NAR/TRA/NFPA position that all model rocket and HPR motors must be explosives prior to cert and legal use?
shockie B)

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Because ATF in their infinite wisdom calls things that "deflagrate" ie matches, propellant, wood, paper, "Deflagrating explosives".
Because they made the default definition so excessively inclusive it was necessary to write the exemptions 555.141-a-8 and 555.141-a-7 and many others to exclude common householld items, and of course any activity by the government itself.
Who wants to co-found and of course formally incorporate the "City of Jerry Irvine the mad bomber" with me?

The distinctions are subtle but real and in the LAW, not in the "interpretations that NAR and TRA, and even NFPA codes authored by same, say.
Jerry

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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Motors are EXEMPT explosives per 27 CFR 555.141-a-8

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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I think one of the guys I wrote a letter for tried this & they wouldn't go for it. That is what I initially tried before I got my LEUP & they didn't go for it.
Phil Stein
On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:03:11 -0800, David Weinshenker

Phil Stein
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Motors are EXEMPT explosives per 27 CFR 555.141-a-8

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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that meets the requirement, and you may also be interested in noting the following:
*** PLEASE be sure to snip it in any replies!! ;) ***
your LEUP entitles you to purchase a motor containing explosive propellant from any vendor at the launch site, any vendor on the way to the site, or possibly even recieve one as a gift ("transfer") from another LEUP holder either there or on the trip up (as long as no money is exchanged, as that would make them a "dealer in Low Explosives"). There is nothing that requires you to make your purchases of motors containing explosive propellant only from a vendor with whom you have a contingency storage agreement
but you can't purchase or recieve a motor containing explosive propellant so long before that you are "possessing" it and are not merely in the act of transporting it (e.g.; you get it the previous day)
note that magazine storage of motors containing explosive propellant is neither required nor permitted during transport. You can transport the motors and their explosive propellant in any properly labelled box (that, I believe, meets the HAZMAT requirements as you are transporting explosive propellant over public roads).
however there may be some logistical issues
[ attention, the following is not "FUD". These are valid concerns raised by a spectrum of rocketeers trying to understand the effect of the SEA after May 24th. ]
one of the stated objectives of the SEA, is that Explosive Materials (even flammable solids that are misclassified by the BATFE as "explosive propellant", albiet "low" explosives) do not fall into the wrong hands by either sale, transfer, theft or negligience. Considering that a launch site is a general milling around of people, with a fair amount of explosive propellant in the motors stashed in their car or launch box while they are eating lunch, talking shop, helping other flyers prep their rockets, or just looking up at the sky for a parachute to deploy, the BATFE may have (what they consider to be) a legimate concern about the security of motors and their explosive propellant at the launch site.
in their mind, it wouldn't do for a terrorist to join the milling people at a launch and be looking for an opportunity to lift some motors and their explosive propellant from someones table, launch box, or raised tailgate with which they can shoot down a plane at 30,000 feet or hit a tank at 5 miles.
therefore, the BATFE may interpret "in use" to mean those motors containing explosive propellant in the act of being put in the rocket, or awaiting ignition at the pad. Motors containing explosive propellant waiting for your subsequent flights may not be considered "in use". There is nothing in the regulations to indicate that this is not subject to their interpretation. Motors containing explosive propellant not "in use" or not being transported may require acceptable storage. [now while some of you may find this conversation absurd and a complete waste of energy, I challenge you to show me a Notice or Q&A from the BATFE where they have committed to a position on it, especially in light of my previous remarks on the SEA, above]
if that is the case, either a Type 3 magazine ("Day Box"), a stationary Type 4 magazine at the launch site which is registered with the BATFE, or a Type 4 "vehicular storage" that was immobilized (the wheels were removed) would be required to hold the motors containing explosive propellant that are not being prepped or at the pad. These precautions seem reasonable (to the BATFE) when you realize that we are talking about protecting airplanes and tanks.
scenatio 1a - your vendor/"storage partner" is at the launch, or any other vendor (whom you, BTW, would be well within your rights to purchase motors containing explosive propellant from)
no problem, they hold onto the motors containing explosive propellant, and take responsibility for keeping airplanes and tanks safe from terrorists with motors containing explosive propellant while you are eating lunch, talking shop, helping other flyers prep their rockets, or just looking up at the sky for a parachute to deploy
scenatio 1b - you stop at a vendor and buy your motors containing explosive propellant on the way up
you have to find someone with a magazine at the launch site to take responsibility for keeping airplanes and tanks safe from terrorists with motors containing explosive propellant while you are eating lunch, talking shop, helping other flyers prep their rockets, or just looking up at the sky for a parachute to deploy, so that airplanes and tanks can remain safe
lets take a optimistic view, and consider that the BATFE does not imagine that terrorists might circulate around launch sites littered with motors containing explosive propellant, or that rocketeers would be concientious citizens and establish a buddy system to make sure all motors and their explosive propellant is accounted for at all times. So despite the fact that storage is required in the safety and security of your own property; you can keep your entire days cache of motors and its explosive propellant in your appropriately labelled cardboard box in your car or in your launch box or on your folding table while you are eating lunch, talking shop, helping other flyers prep their rockets, or just looking up at the sky for a parachute to deploy.
scenario 2a - purchase from alternate vendor at the launchsite (not your storage partner):
any unused motors containing explosive propellant are returned and refunded - no problemo. Airplanes and tanks are safe.
scenario 2b - purchased on the trip up from your vendor & storage partner:
any unused motors containing explosive propellant will have to be (a) destroyed, (b) given away to a vendor or other LEUP holder, or (c) taken back to your vendor for return/refund or for storage in your behalf, or (d) taken to any other storage location or LEUP holder who will assume responsibility for its storage. In any case, airplanes and tanks are safe.
secenario 2c - purchased on the trip up from a vendor other than your storage partner:
any unused motors containing explosive propellant will have to be (a) destroyed, (b) given away to a vendor or other LEUP holder, (c) taken back to the vendor from whom you made the purchase for return/refund, (d) taken to your storage partner for storage in your behalf, or (e) taken to any other storage location or LEUP holder who will assume responsibility for the storage of said motors and their explosive propellant. Airplanes and tanks are safe.
you can't "return it for refund" to anyone other than the vendor from whom you purchased it, as that would be "dealing in Low Explosives" in the eyes of the BATFE.
I know that getting educated on the regs and considering their implications is harrying. But what really upsets me is the absurdity of applying Low Explosive regulations to a non-explosive material. I trust that my use of BATFE's description of APCP helps in understanding their perspective.
see the following references:
Letter from the Department Of Justice to the Chairman Of Senate Judiciary Committee sent June 10, 2003 http://www.space-rockets.com/doj.html
Code of Federal Regulations Title 27 Part 55 - Commerce in Explosives http://www.atf.gov/regulations/27cfr55.html
section of above pertaining to Storage http://www.atf.gov/regulations/27cfr55.html#Sec.%2055.201%A0%20General .
Questions and Answers - 18 U.S.C. Chapter 40 and 27 CFR Part 55 http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/xqanda.htm
- iz
David Weinshenker wrote:

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That's great *if* you have a vendor nearby with approved storage, and who's willing to store motors for customers. However, many states have *no* HPR motor vendors. The nearest to me is over 2 hours away, and not really an option, even though I believe he does this for others.
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27 CFR 555.141-a-8
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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When I got my LEUP 2 years ago, the BATF guy told mem that they don't give nonstorage LEUPs. It was my impression that they don't exist for rocketry. The NAR web site did talk about it but anyway that was my impression. I know of other people trying to get a nonstorage LEUP as I did. They got a similar story.
I agree that if they ever did exist they don't formally exist now. Now, it is possible to get a LEUP if you don't have storage if you have contigency storage.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Phil Stein
On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:31:19 GMT, Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed

Phil Stein
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