In California, harrased by off duty fireman while launching

Perhaps it is time for the citizens to rise up and overthrow the govenmment of Kallifornia. Or failing that, emigrate to better state like Iowa.

Alan

As I have posted over and over, "field judgement" is dead.

We live in a formal police state.

NO.

They tried giving warnings and it did NOT work. People still launched illegally and the illegal launches went from 'nuisence' level to "DANGER" level. Shall I post the examples I listed again?

Why not?

Enforcement has increased as building and population density have increased as well as other rocket related factors. Here are just a few reason:

• More houses than ever are built right up into the brush covered hills. Kids set fire to the hills above Yorba Linda about 15 years ago launching their Estes model rockets illegally at the end of a street. BIG fire. Parents sued for well over 100K for the cost of putting out the fire. Excellent covereage in the Orange County Register including a

"box" insert story detailing where to go to legally and safey launch Model Rockets and how the kids KNEW they were launching illegally.

• Incidents with High Power Rockets crashing FAR outside of the 'way too small' parks and school yards where IDIOTS launched them. Those newspaper reports often tell of the Bomb Squad being called out to investigate the "missile" that crashed throught the roof of the house or crashed next to the toddler in the back yard.

• One of my favorites it the man who was electrocuted and set on fire and dangled from the power pole while on fire/dying. He launched a rocket on his street with his kid. It landed on the power lines. He climbed the pole with a rod to knock the rocket off the wire. His kid watched him as he was electrocuted and set on fire and then dangled while burning. RESULT: Wal Mart and Michaels in this small LA County City were visited by fire department and had all rocketry related products removed. I don't think they were confiscated, simply told to get rid of them and that they did not have a permit to retail/store them (required for retail in CA by the state regulations - typical for most hobby shops nationwide - they require some sort of fire inspection

or permit).

We claim that we self-police and can be completely safe, but only a few

IDIOTS ruin it for HUNDREDS perhaps THOUSANDS of us.

We should prosecute the (surviving) IDIOTS and support the safe people

I agree Fred. One of my toughest tasks is getting my students to understand that they may not launch their rockets in either Glendale or Burbank. Still, some insist on doing it any way. Even under my supervision out at El Mirage, many try and fly rockets that are unstable to say the least. When I refuse to launch them, the kids beg for me to change my mind. "Not a chance", I tell them. All I need is for one kid to get hurt and the insurance Co. will pull the plug on what has been a very educational experience and an annual tradition. As to city launches, non-Kalipornians perhaps have never seen the ancient shake roofs many homes have here nor do they have an appreciation for the density of the buildings and the proliferation of very very dry weeds and grasses. I had a legal and documented launch back in May out in Lancaster that almost went south on me. Using kid built and parent supervised rockets from a well-known and responsible kit supplier, these cub scouts were attempting their merit badges. The parents provided C6-5 motors and almost every single rocket was just barely stable. One went land shark on me and skipped a couple of hundred yards into the dry grass. A fire erupted almost immediately. Thankfully, the dads, some of whom were firemen, got it put out in short order. I swapped all of the C6-5s for A8-3s and things went perfectly after that. Had someone without rocket experience been doing this, they would have never recognized the cause behind the stability issue. If we hadn't had a fire suppression team, shovels and an extinguisher, in other words, been ready, a huge fire would have been the result. Rocketry in dry, heavily populated areas like SoCal requires special precautions be taken. That's why I support organized clubs and supervises launches over backyard rocketry. It's just better for everyone that way.

When the model rocket caucus (similar folks to the NFPA group) last met in Sacremento to "review the rules" the "Estes contingent" "with the support of the Aerotech contingent", changed the field size from 1/4 the expected altitude to 1/2 the expected altitude and modified the FD permission from verbal to writing (the death knoll for MR in CA IMHO.)

They also uopgraded the landowner treatment to SPECIFICALLY require it.

As it was before, in practice if the cops wanted to shew you from a site they would use a disturbing the peace claim thus allowing you to leave gracefully.

The new regeime makes any overt act not in strict compliance a crime. Immediately punishable by fine and jail.

Your model rocket caucus hard at work.

Jerry

I told you so.

NO.

They tried giving warnings and it did NOT work. People still launched illegally and the illegal launches went from 'nuisence' level to "DANGER" level. Shall I post the examples I listed again?

Why not?

Enforcement has increased as building and population density have increased as well as other rocket related factors. Here are just a few reason:

• More houses than ever are built right up into the brush covered hills. Kids set fire to the hills above Yorba Linda about 15 years ago launching their Estes model rockets illegally at the end of a street. BIG fire. Parents sued for well over 100K for the cost of putting out the fire. Excellent covereage in the Orange County Register including a

"box" insert story detailing where to go to legally and safey launch Model Rockets and how the kids KNEW they were launching illegally.

• Incidents with High Power Rockets crashing FAR outside of the 'way too small' parks and school yards where IDIOTS launched them. Those newspaper reports often tell of the Bomb Squad being called out to investigate the "missile" that crashed throught the roof of the house or crashed next to the toddler in the back yard.

• One of my favorites it the man who was electrocuted and set on fire and dangled from the power pole while on fire/dying. He launched a rocket on his street with his kid. It landed on the power lines. He climbed the pole with a rod to knock the rocket off the wire. His kid watched him as he was electrocuted and set on fire and then dangled while burning. RESULT: Wal Mart and Michaels in this small LA County City were visited by fire department and had all rocketry related products removed. I don't think they were confiscated, simply told to get rid of them and that they did not have a permit to retail/store them (required for retail in CA by the state regulations - typical for most hobby shops nationwide - they require some sort of fire inspection

or permit).

We claim that we self-police and can be completely safe, but only a few

IDIOTS ruin it for HUNDREDS perhaps THOUSANDS of us.

We should prosecute the (surviving) IDIOTS and support the safe people

The fact we do is hard evidence the authorities are more interested in their convenience than in citizens rights to liberty, or gag, education.

The "model rocket caucus" is a willing very short-sighted accomplice.

Jerry

False again.

The "Model Rocket Caucus" spends all its time trying to undo the damage caused by those who launch illegally and cause problems including:

• crashing rockets (model and high power) into neighbors back yards resulting in calls to the bomb squad.

• killing themselves via electrocution/self-immolation.

• showing up at parks to do live launches on the radio and attempting to bully the parks department into allowing them to conduct their stunt therby poisoning the parks department toward model rocketry for MANY years after the stupid stunt.

• trying to clearly explain the differnce between what the authorities see on television (LDRS/HPR porta-potties and spectacular CATOs and God-knows what they'll see on Master balsters) and Model Rocketry.

-Fred Shecter NAR 20117

Which one?

Which particular kit?

Jerry

Dis you get his NAME AND NUMBER, OR LICENSE PLATE? I'd report him to his supervisor, or the town, for abuse of authority.

And at least for now (never know what the next unconstitutional law the idiots in DC will pass), you do NOT have to identify yourself to any cop. The ONLY person who can insist that you show your drivers license is a cop stopping you while you are DRIVING. To quote nancy, "just say no".

I don't even carry my license on me when I'm not in my car.

And IMHO, right around 7/4 is a bad time to go out flying model rockets. It gives the wrong impression to associate our hobby with fireworks.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Was it one of the models discussed/mentioned/warned about on our "Safety Advisory"? If not, let us know. The c.g. shift aftward casued by folks using the most powerful motor possible for the first flight (usually C6-5 or C6-7) is our biggest headache at regular launches. The Park may in fact insist upon using only lower power motors to reduce both the downrange ballistic impact distance and the recovery drift into trees.

-Fred Shecter NAR 20117

Proposes and RULES.

What RULE would YOU like to see them CHANGE?

More fully legalize them then?

Jerry

I will blame this one on my using Google to read these messages. I did not see your other message where your use of the term "model rocket caucus" was clearly (or semi-clearly) explained. I assumed you meant any model rocket groups working with authorities at any level.

The rest of what I said remains correct.

;)

-Fred Shecter

The lack of attribution and quoting prevented correcting the error in-line as well.

You sound like quite the advocate for increased regulation of, well, everything. Are you happy when your local BATF thug visits you to inspect your supply of "explosives"?

Kalifornia is this weird dichotomy of extreme regulations on model rockets and such, then on the other end of the political spectrum there are the court rulings about religion in the schools imposing unconstitutional restrictions on people's *FREDOM* of religion.

Just keep your regulations at the state level, okay?

Glen, living in the land of 10,000 taxes

Wow, that was fairly illogical.

I provided examples of illegal use of Model Rockets and High Power Rockets causing problems for those who want to use their Model Rockets legally.

You then start talking about the BATF(E) and inspections. Model Rockets do not require BATFE involvement.

The State level regulations here in California require you to get the permission of the property owner and a permit from the Fire AHJ.

Do you object to getting permission of the property owner? In other words, do you advocate going onto other people's land and using it however you wish?

If people would not endanger others (and thermselves), then I could see no need for Fire permits for Model Rockets. The idiots have proven that they cannot be trusted and so the State must protect the general public from them by regulating. It sucks, and it's the direct result of the idiots.

Fire Department permits are the easiest thing to obtain. Land owner permission is the most difficult to obtain. Since tresspassing is a bad idea, I imagine that in every state this would be an issue (unless folks avoid asking for permission).

-Fred Shecter NAR 20117

Well, Fred, here's one problem...

I believe that PUBLIC lands should be allowed to be used by the PUBLIC for LAWFUL activities. I don't require special permission to play baseball with my kid at public parks, and I shouldn't have to get special permission to launch model rockets (fire permit issues aside).

Then prosecute the idiots (as has been done -- in the instances you mentioned, even). Don't go punishing those who do things PROPERLY, punish those who do it IMPROPERLY.

See above -- using public lands should be ipso facto treated as having permission granted.

David Erbas-White

That must really be a bummer for a felon like you.

Not one of your kits Jerry nor one of Estes. The kit was sound but not with the larger C motors. I'm not mentioning the name of the manufacturer out of fairness. Some might blame him unjustly for a problem that was clearly related to the way in which the rockets were built.