NAr JR Certification Participation program

Jerry sez:
"He cannot buy HPR motors even with adult supervision as set forth by CPSC.
No, he cannot legally (nor can they be legally sold to him) purchase the motors, but his parent or guardian can purchase them for his use.
"He cannot load his own reloadable motors as any model rocketeer, or any adult HPR rocketeer, or any unaffiliated rocketeer, can."
Where does it say in the NFPA codes or CPSC that an adult can allow his son/daughter to assemble or load a hpr rocket motor into a hpr rocket, under their direct adult supervision?
"He cannot prep any dual deployment system, flash pan system, ematch cluster or anything else specifically including ematches or BP, as any model rocketeer, or any adult HPR rocketeer, or any unaffiliated rocketeer, ....."
PLease cite where it says a parent or adult guardian cannnot allow their son/daughter to perform these activities under direct supervision?
Participation mean with direct adult supervision......
shockie B)

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Not in HPR if the parent is not also HPR certified. (new NAR HPR-jr rule)
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NAR HPR-jr rules. Hence anything outside of that is not within the NAR safety code or regeime.
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Again a non-HPR certified parent or guardian.
Here:
http://www.rocketryforum.com/reviews/narss/NAR_JR_APP.pdf
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Carl Tulanko Chairman NAR Sport Services NAR 79454 L3CC Administrator The Rocketry Forum
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NAR Junior HPR Participation Program Announced By NAR President Mark ³Bunny² Bundick
Thanks to the hard work of the Sport Services Committee, I¹m happy to announce our new NAR Junior HPR Participation Program. This program provides a way for NAR Junior members, aged 14-17, a chance to fly H and I motors. Please read on to find out the details of our newest HPR user program!
The Level 1 Junior/Leader HPR participation program will follow the same basic procedure used for the HPR certification for Senior NAR members.
However, due to CPSC restrictions pertaining to the purchase and possession of high power rocket motors and related items, there are additional requirements.
It¹s important for NAR Senior member administering the Junior HPR Participation Program to keep those legal requirement in mind whenever Juniors are participating in HPR flights. The additional requirements have been placed on Junior HPR participants:
1. All HPR flights performed by the Junior and Leader NAR member must be directly supervised by an adult who is HPR certified L1 or greater, and can legally purchase and possess the motor or reload kit used for the flight.
2. Use of ³electric matches² or black powder (other than that present in the assembled motor) is not permitted.
3. Motor assembly (if required) and installation onto the airframe is to be performed by the supervising adult under the direction of the Junior/Leader participant.
4. The adult supervising the flight must be willing to be listed as the flier of record and understand that they are assuming full responsibility and liability for the flight as if it were their own.
5. The supervising adult must be present when the Junior/Leader HPR participant delivers the airframe to the RSO for pre-flight inspection and placement on the launch pad.
6. Post-flight inspection of the airframe and documentation for HPR certification flights employs the same procedures as those for a NAR Senior Level 1 Certification flight.
When the HPR certified NAR Leader member turns 18 years of age, the adult supervision requirements are lifted and the certification converts to that of a NAR Senior member. At that time the member also becomes eligible to attempt their NAR L2 HPR certification flight.
The NAR Board of Trustees approved this program at our NARAM-46 meeting, August 2004. We hope that members will find this program a new way to further engage NAR Junior and Senior members in their local activities. We also hope those Senior members involved in the Junior HPR Participation Program will enjoy their mentoring experience to young rocketeers all over the country.
None of the NAR¹s HPR user programs would exist without the hard work of the Sport Services Committee, currently chaired by Carl Tulanko, with John Lyngdal as Trustee Advisor to the committee. Carl would not have been able to produce this new program without the groundwork laid by outgoing Chairman Steve Lubliner. Steve created and managed all aspects of the NAR¹s user certification programs, starting literally from scratch, and created the NAR¹s largest member service program. Thanks to all of these volunteers for continuing the NAR¹s long standing tradition of member service volunteering!
Members with questions about the programs should contact Sport Services Chairman Carl Tulanko, 474 Old SR 74, Apt 511, Cincinnati, OH 45244 , or via email at snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com.
Who¹ll be the first NAR Junior HPR HPR Participation Program flyer? Look for an announcement in the next issue of Sport Rocketry, and get flying!
Pay forward! Aim high!
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An important demographic in the NAR is the father/son or father/daughter ...if we can encourage more family activity it will attract more families over time.....which will grow the NAR base...Its a positive step in the right direction.....the NAR has always encouraged family model rocketry, now they can add HPR to that family activity....
this will hopefully lead to future adultr HPR flyers.....
at least the NAR has a program with guidelines, over at TRA, they have a junior HPR membership but they don't tell you how that kid is supposed to get hold of HPR stuff....DOH
perhaps the TRA will adopt some mutually agreeable JR program with the NAR....?
shockie B)
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over at TRA, they have a
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Example of what you ask about: Dad is certified. He buys a motor and puts it in JRs rocket. he fills out the flight card for record. legal beagle
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99.999% of dad's are not certified.
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95% of TRA dad's are certified.
he asked about TRA and how they did it. that how it's done.
;-)

Assuming that the dad does all the legal and tech stuff for the kid. The kid just watches as they do now at a NAR or Tripoli launch.
What does the kid get out of this? Proxy certification? What about his Leup? Ken

snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (Kenneth Jarosch) wrote:
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I keep asking this and the author of the rule himself did not like it:
I wrote:
What are Ian's practical benefits for being HPR certified, besides the "merit badge"?
He cannot buy HPR motors even with adult supervision as set forth by CPSC.
He cannot load his own reloadable motors as any model rocketeer, or any adult HPR rocketeer, or any unaffiliated rocketeer, can.
He cannot prep any dual deployment system, flash pan system, ematch cluster or anything else specifically including ematches or BP, as any model rocketeer, or any adult HPR rocketeer, or any unaffiliated rocketeer, can.
Many other limitations not listed specifically.
Sooo?
Why?
I ask.
I want a rational, non-political answer.
Tulanko:
After just giving you the choice, I see nothing positive in your last statement, so we obviously all know where you now stand when it comes to helping and encouraging our young rocketeers to participate in new and exciting programs. It is a shame you can not continue to offer assistance to our youth in this manner; as you stated, you have done so in the past, which has never been disputed, however, your future seems questionable. I can only hope that in the future you will change your mind and once again assist with helping our young fliers and with the growth of our hobby. If you wish to comment further, I would insist we take this off line so the thread can get back on track.
Mike, you most certainly can build an altimeter bay and use it for recording during all your flights. Please let us know how you do with your flight and we hope you will keep us posted, to include pics...remember, we love to see pics!
Best Regards,
Note the subject header was: Announcing the NAR Junior HPR Participation Program
My trolls will cheerfully note I am being personally attacked by yet another board administrator and NAR program leader. I find it sad.

jerry: there you go again , spewing forth your propaganda and your FUD.....
A minor can do all of this with direct adult supervision.....there is nothing in the CPSC or NFPA that says an adult cannot directly supervise a minor with HPR......
shockie B)
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Huh?
EXCEPT within the NAR HPR jr program. THAT is the point.
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Agreed.

shockwaveriderz wrote:
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supervise a
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Correct. So why does anyone need a special "junior cert" program? Since minors can do HPR without any "junior cert", it's quite clear that the "junior cert" is really nothing more than a lame merit badge system that places more restrictions on the kids than currently exist.
If they really want a merit badge, create a merit badge system that doesn't add new restrictions. And CALL it a merit badge -- it's not a cert.
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I cannot beleive some of you people...have you all forgotten what it was like to be 13-14 years of age and get a merit badge? It was an pretty important event in the life of alot of young people as it showed them they could accomplish something positive....
shockie B)
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We are not debating the emotional satisfaction of a kid in rocketry doing ANYTHING, no matter how minor or ill-formed by those great ones on high.
Rocketeers are zealots.
But if your goal is to INCREASE participation in rocketry, HPR in this case, it is intuitively obvious that the best process is to learn by doing, not instruct verbally from afar.
It is also iintuitively obvious that any restriction on access to HPR (especially those which are supersets of law or past practice), REDUCES participation.
Hence rules that have an effect opposite the stated goal.
Jerry
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shockwaveriderz wrote:
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was
they
I was never in the Scouts, so never had a merit badge. Never felt the need for one either -- anything you could get a merit badge for, you could do just as well (or better) on your own without one.
As I see it, merit badges are best used in the same manner as a "gold star" from the teacher for doing your homework. It works as an enticement to do something that you normally wouldn't want to do. If an activity is something you'd want to do anyway, there's no need for any enticement.
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What do your teen age children tell you? Mine thinks it's a good idea. Of course this is the same one who is 1/2 a Merit Badge and 75% of a project away from Eagle Scout. Maybe when he finally turns 14 he'll get the HPR "merit badge". What a slacker!
I think your characterization of Merit Badges is wrong. Of course, I probably have more experience with them then you do ;-)
snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:
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Maybe so, but many in NRA , yes that was NRA competition as adults go for merit badges all the time.
A shooter in the shooting sports goes for his distinguished.
some go for getting marksmen, then expert, then master in the competitions each year at Camp Perry.

shockwaveriderz wrote:
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Looks like many have grown so old their youth is dead and buried. Being around young people does keep one young and I do enjoy talking with the present day youth movement in this hobby. If I ever act that old, crotchety and befuddled as some are here please tell me to leave. I will have ended my usefullness on this earth. :-)
Chuck

Here is the actual direct reply to Jerry's post. It is *NOT* the crap Jerry states below:
"Jerry, you already know the answers to your questions and therefore need not post them as questions here. However, what you do with the answers is more important. Will you try to assist Junior rocketeers and help promote the program, or will try to find fault with all that has been presented and do nothing?
The wealth of knowlege and skills you bring to our hobby could provide these youths with a wide range of techniques to learn and apply, but it is up to you to bring your skilll set to the table, if you are up to the challenge...the choice is yours.
We can only hope you choose to positively influence our youths.
Best Regards,
Carl"
Hey, Jerry. If you're so damn smart, why is it that you can't figure out how a simple copy-and-paste procedure works so you can quote people accurately? How is it that you can act surprised and indignant because the only people who believe a word you speak are the people who just don't know you yet when you can't even quote someone accurately??
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Very well.
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I asked them to determine YOUR viewpoint on them as the chair of the committe installing the new HPR jr rules.
I felt going to the source was a wise moxe.
I had hoped to see a substantive reply, but all I did see was personal attack (which your co-moderator did not snip or warn you about) and OF COURSE your exercising your AUTHORITY at TRF to KILL THE DEBATE.
So I repurposed my effort as you know with GRAND success. Success defined as a debate on the ISSUES with REAL back and forth discussion.
Hopefully this "Version 1.0" effort can be amended considering the comments of the folks on TRF and elsewhere (notably your email).
I can hope?
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IF they are even allowed to learn and apply them which they are NOT under the rules of the NAR HPR jr program, ironically.
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Those tables I am even welcome at.
Some folks object to my pointing out their actions are opposite their own words or their own rules or their own stated goals.
I see it annoys you too.
Consider this. Most of the folks agreed with my comments.
Jerry
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I have a pretty good head start sir. And PLENTY of folks are FIXATED on frustrating my efforts WITHIN either TRA or NAR. Fine.
But here are what a couple of rmr folks say about your NAR HPR jr rules:
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P.S. I am sorry you are annoyed.

Jerry Irvine wrote:
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I didn't see anything that remotely resembled a personal attack in Mr. Tulanko's reply.
I do agree with you that the NAR Jr. HPR program seems to offer little more than a merit badge. It actually places more restrictions on minors than currently exist in practice.
The only potential benefit I can see would be if the Jr. Cert could be turned into a regular cert when the kid comes of age. However, that doesn't seem likely since a real cert requires the flyer to assemble his own motor and prep his own deployment charges -- both of which are not permitted in the Jr. program.