NAr JR Certification Participation program

That's just 2nd childhood/mid-life crisis. Personally I couldn't afford the red sports car and I wasn't into the X-gen young girls' idea of adornment (get that railroad spike outta yer nose!). So I've kept the

12 year old 200,000 mile beater-mobile, found a lady 5 years my junior (hey, that's still younger!), and got my Level one. Alot more satifying than trying to re-live a past event that didn't work out near as good as the imaginings/hopes. But then I never was one to follow fashion (no twin bandoliers of Viagra bottles here!). I much prefer learning from my mistakes so I can go find new ones to commit ;-) And in the meanwhile, I'm going to start teaching the 4 year old grandson the proper way to be a teenage sex maniac. He should start listening at about 30, like I did. :-)

Chuck

Suggestions for CHANGE are being made on rmr and TRF so it can be improved SOONER by some process other than magic or emergency failure.

No. They have the 1994 BOD vote for TMT to require ATF permits for exempt goods.

NAR may be imperfect but TRA is a severe disaster leaking onto all of rocketry and pyrotechnic product industries.

Jerry

Publiciizing TRA-EX poked CPSC in the eye too.

Let's see: TRA has negatively, drasticly, changed: NFPA ATF CPSC

I cannot beleive some of you people...have you all forgotten what it was like to be 13-14 years of age and get a merit badge? It was an pretty important event in the life of alot of young people as it showed them they could accomplish something positive....

We are not debating the emotional satisfaction of a kid in rocketry doing ANYTHING, no matter how minor or ill-formed by those great ones on high.

Rocketeers are zealots.

But if your goal is to INCREASE participation in rocketry, HPR in this case, it is intuitively obvious that the best process is to learn by doing, not instruct verbally from afar.

It is also iintuitively obvious that any restriction on access to HPR (especially those which are supersets of law or past practice), REDUCES participation.

Hence rules that have an effect opposite the stated goal.

Jerry

please cite examples.. TRA is part of the NFPA process.... TRA is about HPR.....CPSC has nothing to do with HPR (only Model Rocketry)

You may have a point about teh BATFe...don't really know...

shockie B)

Could someone post the exact wording on how the CPSC allows use of hazardous materials by minors with adult supervision? Everything I've found says no sales to or use by minors. Some things (like model rocket motors and common fireworks) are specifically exempted. I'm guessing firearms too because my son and I burned through more Black Powder at scout camp in a week than we will EVER use through rocketry.

Even the CAR HPR program says the minors can not assemble or install the motor.

I have no problem with wording the policy such that the adult mentor is the "agent of legal record" for the acts of "purchase and use" of the motor (i.e., kid bulds the rocket, dad buys the motor and signs the flight card)... I know of folks who do that on an informal basis already, and it's been posted that the CAR "junior participation" program is set up in a similar way...

I believe I was one of the folks who sent in a suggestion to NAR that some such program be set up, and I expected, as with the CAR program, some sort of "adult as Designated Owner of motor" provision, specifically to address potential regulatory concerns regarding "purchase by minors" of larger motors...

-dave w

Federal law says you can buy and store up to 50 pounds of BP "...intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms or in antique devices." Some folks interpret that sentence one way, some another. Regardless of you, I or ATF interpret it, the fact remains that this exemption allows anyone to buy BP.

The flight card is not a legal requirement or element.

The kid can do it just fine herself.

Why wouldn't existing regs and laws be conrtrolling so the "program" need not address that issue at all.

The problem with NAR and TRA is they write overlapping rules and GET THEM WRONG so often.

Jerry

certification

You can start roadracing motorcycles at 10 (with parental consent), which I dare say is a little more hazardous that beating each other with padded sticks, and not even in the same dimension as toy rockets.

alex: I'm not sure there is any exact wording per se...at least as far as I can find...

Sec. 1500.85 Exemptions from classification as banned hazardous substances. (a) The term banned hazardous substances as used in section

2(q)(1)(A) of the act shall not apply to the following articles provided that these articles bear labeling giving adequate directions and warnings for safe use:

(8) Model rocket propellant devices designed for use in light-weight, recoverable, and reflyable model rockets, provided such devices: (i) Are designed to be ignited by electrical means. (ii) Contain no more than 62.5 grams (2.2 ounces) of propellant material and produce less than 80 newton-seconds (17.92 pound seconds) of total impulse with thrust duration not less than 0.050 second. (iii) Are constructed such that all the chemical ingredients are preloaded into a cylindrical paper or similarly constructed nonmetallic tube that will not fragment into sharp, hard pieces. (iv) Are designed so that they will not burst under normal conditions of use, are incapable of spontaneous ignition, and do not contain any type of explosive or pyrotechnic warhead other than a small parachute or recovery system activation charge.

(9) Separate delay train and/or recovery system activation devices intended for use with premanufactured model rocket engines wherein all of the chemical ingredients are preloaded so the user does not handle any chemical ingredient and are so designed that the main casing or container does not rupture during operation.

Sec. 1500.83 Exemptions for small packages, minor hazards, and special circumstances (36) Individual toy rocket propellant devices and separate delay train and/or recovery system activation devices intended for use with premanufactured model rocket engines are exempt from bearing the full labeling required by section 2(p)(1) of the act (repeated in Sec. 1500.3(b)(14)(i)) insofar as such requirements would be necessary because the articles are flammable or generate pressure, provided that: (i) The devices are designed and constructed in accordance with the specifications in Sec. 1500.85(a) (8) or (9): (ii) Each individual device or retail package of devices bears the following: (A) The statement ``WARNING--FLAMMABLE: Read instructions before use''; (B) The common or usual name of the article; (C) A statement of the type of engine and use classification; (D) Instructions for safe disposal; and (E) Name and place of business of manufacturer or distributor; and (iii) Each individual rocket engine or retail package of rocket engines distributed to users is accompanied by an instruction sheet bearing complete cautionary labeling and instructions for safe use and handling of the individual rocket engines.

shockie B)

From the CAR website: Senior HPR Certification requires skills and knowledge in three areas:

1.Theory and knowledge 2.Construction skills 3.Motor handling, assembly, and use

Junior members can participate under the first two activities, but ERD regulations prohibit junior participation in the third category. Junior certification tests the first two areas in the same manner that senior certifications are done: Exam for the first and airframe examination and RSO questioning on the second.

and

The certification steps are: Junior member writes the exam exactly the same as a senior member. ? Junior member builds and prepares the airframe himself or herself. ? Sponsoring senior member prepares and installs the motor.

and

When the member turns 18, they must re-fly 1 rocket at the HIGHEST certification level achieved, selecting, building and installing the motor themselves, and if this flight is successful then they are given full certification at this level as a Senior CAR member.

So the Canadian program has the same restricti> I have no problem with wording the policy such that the adult mentor

alex: model rocket motors, as described in 1500.85 are exempted from the FULL labeling(and testing(??)) requirements that other banned hazardous substances must undergo ....

ie model rocket motors have special labeling requirements, and as long as they adhere to those, they are exempted for use by minors as a banned hazardous substance.....

and yes according to CPSC regs, if the motor has > 62.5 then it is considered a banned hazardous substance to those under 18, but not to adults....

< -- federal hazardous substances act

does this make any sense? answer your question?

shockie B)

I was never in the Scouts, so never had a merit badge. Never felt the need for one either -- anything you could get a merit badge for, you could do just as well (or better) on your own without one.

As I see it, merit badges are best used in the same manner as a "gold star" from the teacher for doing your homework. It works as an enticement to do something that you normally wouldn't want to do. If an activity is something you'd want to do anyway, there's no need for any enticement.

.

Don't you have to be 18 to buy Estes E's at hobby stores? A web store clearly states that "This is a 3-Pack of Estes E9-4 Model Rocket "E" Engines. For Ages 18 and Up", where as "This is a 3-Pack of Estes B4-2 Model Rocket "B" Engines. For Ages 10 and Up."

My son saw my F20's and wants to go big and he has not even gotten the basics of rockets down. There are always those that are more advanced in building and understanding, especially someone like a 17.9 year old, but isn't it still as illegal as giving your 20.9 year old kids booze at home because they are adult supervised?

It seems that Jr. HPR is, in and of itself, something of a "how can you do that?"

I really dont want to get into the "why's", but why not just get kids practicing the same building, clustering, staging, and airstart techniques using motors they can legally buy and use?