Quickburst shut down by BATFE

On 20 Sep 2006 12:30:03 -0500, kaplow snipped-for-privacy@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) wrote:


Knowing what people know now or what they knew 7-8 years ago? Dubyah showed the people that voted for him a thing or two.
Phil
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Philip Stein wrote:

No doubt who I'd vote for, even though I'm not a fan of either, by any means.. The shrub (baby bush) could have been the "AHOLE" in my example!
Don't really care for Hillary but out of real "potential" people, I'd rather see her than the Shrub.. So I'd be voting against the Shrub, and not voting for someone who most folks have never even heard of...
But who I voted for would have more of an impact than if I voted for someone who didn't stand a chance from day one!
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AZ Woody wrote:

Holy ?!@#
Are you kidding? How many bombings does it take?
Did you forget Reno + Clinton calling for the registration of any group of 5 or more to combat grassroots efforts? How about Carnivore and Eshilon(sp). Tighter homeland restrictions ala McVey and David Koresh(sp). Giving technology to the Chinese enabling them to guide ICBM's to our cities. Thousands of FBI files of their opponents found at the White house.
Reno enabled the BATF as her private police force.
I could go on, and on, but you get the idea.
I hate any liberty taken from the people. I can only imagine the jail we all would live in had Al or Hillary been in power.
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... First day with the hook!
Squawk! Pieces of Eight! Squawk! Pieces of Eight! Squawk! Pieces of Eight! Squawk! Pieces of Nine! Squawk! Parroty Error :-)
Even my rocket dog, Goddard is a pirate. She says "RRrrrrr" a lot, and steals things.
--
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
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I wore my pirate socks today.
arrrrrrrrr-gyle.
--
Mike KD7PVT
NAR #70953 - Sr/HPR Level-1 ~ BEMRC - NAR Section #627
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Bob Kaplow wrote:

I know it's "talk like a pirate day", but I'm not sure when "talk like a fool" day is. I'm sure you got that marked on your calender Bob, so give us the date. We could call it "talk like a Kaplow" day, if that makes you happy!
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Does anyone know why quickburst was singled out? Were they just the first to get harassed or was there a technicality of some sort? Does this mean that we should all stock up now?
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lizardqueen wrote:

They probably just "came to their attention" in some way.. Think about the motor vendor in DC that also got hit by the BATFE... Quickburst isn't the first, by any means...
You advertise on the web (as a vendor) and a simple google search for "ignitors" gives customers a link, but also gives one to the BATFE!
You try to sell stuff on the web in a manner that the BATFE can't find you, and that even looks worse..
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AZ Woody wrote:

We need a new term...
From now on, anyone who wants to sell things like this should call them "rocket-makeit-go'ers"!!!
David Erbas-White
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Let me play Devils' Advocate here for a moment...
The way I understand it, the fellow who runs Quickburst (sorry, I can't recall his name...) had a LEUP, and yet has been selling igniters for some time.
Since a LEUP is intended for 'Use-Only'... and the sale of igniters is clearly outside that definition, it's no wonder he was approached.
And before anyone says "Well, what about Estes?" - I'm pretty sure that they'd have a valid Manufacturers' Permit in hand.
It wasn't the igniters per se that got the BATFE all worked up... it was the fact that he was selling them without a LEMP that brought it to their attention. Get the permit, and all troubles go away.
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Len Lekx wrote:

I think he has a LEDP. It's the LEMP he does not have.

Perhaps. But as long as you have a device that initiates a regulated explosive (and they claim that APCP operates through explosion, right?) they you have a regulated material per Congress. Estes motors are exempt so their "igniters" don't initiate a regulated explosive.
Assume we win in October. Our BP charges are still regulated (unless the PAD definition applies, which I'm sure the ATF will claim it does not because the charges are not hand-held and therefore can not be a tool).
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Alex Mericas wrote:

Question: if you make your own black powder, is it regulated too?
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"Darrell D. Mobley" wrote:

If the homemade BP is not for your own personal use and available for sale in commerce, its regulated..
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W. E. Fred Wallace wrote:

But what if your home-made black powder isn't in an ATFE-approved magazine?
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"Darrell D. Mobley" wrote:

See the response by Dave Shultz, pretty much covers it.
Fred
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Darrell D. Mobley wrote:

The only exemption is at 18 USC 845(a)(5). Even if you planned to use your home made BP in an antique firearm, it wouldn't be exempt because the exemption is for commercially made black powder.
Will the JBGT break down your doors as soon as you make a batch? Unlikely unless you have done something to piss someone off.
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David W. Schultz
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Darrell D. Mobley wrote:

Not if You are using it in Your Great great great grandfather's muzzle loading firearm, or maybe a celebratory cannon.
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Alex Mericas wrote:

Alex, I see nothing in the law or regulations that makes a distinction between igniters that are designed to initiate regulated explosives or unregulated materials.
Estes igniters aren't regulated by the ATF simply because they choose not to. Perhaps Estes has a copy of an ATF ruling, or perhaps not. The MSDS for the Estes igniter lists potassium nitrate and charcoal as ingredients, which makes it a "potassium nitrate explosive mixture" which is on the list of explosives.
Or it could have something to do with the small amount of pyrogen per Estes igniter versus the amount in a Quickburst Fatboy igniter.
The only surprising thing about this enforcement action is that it took the ATF so long to do it.
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David W. Schultz
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David Schultz wrote:

The complete class of "igniters" is not regulated by the ATF. Devices containing a regulated material are regulated. Not all igniters contain ATF regulated materials.
The manufacturing of fireworks for sale requires a manufacturing permit. However, many fireworks can be purchased, stored and used without an ATF user permit because the use is exempt from needing a permit.
Do you know if Estes igniters are totally unregulated or are you speculating? Potassium nitrate and charcoal is black powder. The more it is milled the more it goes KABOOM! Sulfur is not a required component of black powder.
Oxral, Daveyfire, M-TEK, "Cosmos" ematches all contain one or more ATF regulated materials.
My opinion is that the regulation of the sale and storage of ematches that contain a minute amount of material is pointless and a waste of tax money because they present no significant risk to the public. Eating spinach or fish is probably riskier. Mixing a couple of common household chemicals is far riskier. Anyone wanting an ematch for doing evil can easily make one.
Another opinion is that politicians, of any party, will not solve our problems because they have nothing to gain from deregulation and much to gain from creating more regulations.
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Nobody wrote:

A very specific exemption exists at 27 CFR 555.141(a)(7) for consumer fireworks. No such exemption exists for igniters.

Since I can walk into a hobby store anywhere in the country and buy Estes igniters without showing an ATF permit from a store that has no ATF permit, then they are not being regulated.

As does the Estes igniter.

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David W. Schultz
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