Quickburst shut down by BATFE

wrote:

Manufacturing an explosive for commerce requires an ATF manufacturing permit. Do the igniters contain a regulated explosive? Does Quickburst have a manufacturing permit? Most parties shut down by the ATF are making illegal fireworks rather than rocket motor igniters.
Many pyrotechnic devices are available for purchase without the requirement of a user permit even though they contain a regulated explosive. A manufacturing permit is required to make them.
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What to know why estes gets away with it? My Dad back in the early 80's to a trip to Denver, Colo. and tured some of the state, lyons, etc. When near Estes he was told in the local clp joint that they also made ammo up there for DOD. He didn't think about geting this confermed, but it was told him no less than 3 times in that area, so it would seem if any of that was true then or now, they have an "In" into the grovement.
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------------------------ The last time I heard the word 'winky(ies)', my son was 3.
He was referring to 'his' rocket. ;)
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K Cornelius wrote:

A less polite synonym of the word "winky" provides a pretty accurate appoximation of who's in the ATF administration.
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Malcontent wrote:

As I recall from ancient rocket history, Estes avoided the problematic legalities of "igniters" by selling them packaged together with the motors as part of the "motor assembly" in the package. And by keeping the amount of pyrogen below 50(or was it 20?)milligrams. Of course, Estes also sells these non-igniters separately but that is allowed as "replacement parts" for malfuncting units which is legally distinct from simply selling igniters.
It's all horse puckey legalism of course, but that's the ONLY thing that matters to bureaucracies.
Estes igniters have two leads, a resistive bridge, and pyrogen just like any other igniter. Their intended function is to *ignite* rocket motors. But they are *not* igniters BECAUSE ATF SAYS SO!
Now, go to the blackboard and write the phrase, "BECAUSE ATF SAYS SO!" 500 times. +McG+
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kmcgrmr@ wrote:

So why can't others sell "replacement parts"?
The US legal system has ruled this to be permissible with things like toner refills for photocopiers, replacement cartridges for laser printers, and even ink refills for inkjet printers (whose manufacturers are now resorting to other methods - chips on the ink cartridge - to keep the refillers at bay).
I think that turning a blind eye towards Estes is a Bereau strategy intended to pacify Estes in order to keep them out of the legal battle. They have a name that many congressmen will recognise. Vern Estes has a good story he told at NARCON in, IIRC, 2005 about why his model rocket motors is safer to have than to have people making their own motors out of match heads and other things. They can easily take out Estes when they're done with the rest of us.
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Glen Overby wrote:

This is what confuses me about ATFE rulings -- they seem to be pushing people toward amateur activities, away from pre-manufactured components. Pre-manufactured components would give the opportunity to put trace elements into the mixtures so you would know where the stuff came from if it ever ended up in an explosive device. If everyone is building their own stuff, the ability to trace is hampered.
And it raises awareness of explosive compounds and their composition and structures, how they are made and work together. In this day of anti-terrorism, why are we pushing regular consumers to expand their knowledge of explosives? Every new formula posted on the Internet exposes more and more terroristic potential. This seems to have the opposite effect to me.
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You've been gone too long Darrell. You should know thid by now. It's the government. It doesn't have to make sense.
--
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
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Bob Kaplow wrote:

Bob, the world changed on 9/11, and you just can accept that.
A real story here.. Went a bought a new car today - first time in 10 years.
anyways I was handed a form to fill out, and I asked why the info on the form was needed. The salesperson told me that it was due to the TSA and the patriot act, as they needed to insure that I wasn't a terrorist! (I'm a 48 year old guy from Milwaukee, and just buying a new car!)
That's what happens when you "throw away" your vote.. The idiots remain in charge. Vote for someone that you think might actually get elected and have an impact, even if it's "the lesser evil" of the folks that stand a chance.
The government in the US is what the people vote for, and throwing away a vote, is like not voting at all!
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writes:

"Know what I pray for? The strength to change what I can, the inability to accept what I can't and the incapacity to tell the difference." -- Calvin

First of all, tell me who I could have voted for, or voted against, that would have prevented this case.
Second, please identify the federal form you were required to fill out. I'd like to look it up and see what kind of JBGT crap this really is. It had to have some form number, an OMB number, etc. A pointer to an online copy would be great.
--
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
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Bob Kaplow wrote:

I suppose you are right, Bob. I let logic re-establish itself in my life...
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Why doesn't it have to?
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Darrell D. Mobley wrote:

Not to mention the fact that the regs vastly increase the pool of LEUP holders -- meaning, more people who can legally purchase REAL explosives, not just rocket motors and igniters.

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Darrell D. Mobley wrote:

Darrell, you might remember my very similar rantings about this on the old Compuserve rocketry forum. We are in a classic predator/prey cycle of evolutionary adaptation with respect to ATF. It's stupidly counterproductive with respect to the general good but ATF is helpless to resist their bureaucratic nature. And rocketeers have no choice but to adapt or go extinct.
The only thing about all this that I got wrong in my rants of years past is that it is proceeding much more slowly than I expected.
It is no doubt frustrating to ATF that rocketeers have proven to be so adaptable. But this cycle of adaptive response is leading to a schism in the rocketry community between the LEUP haves and have nots. The haves adapt by getting permits. The have nots, being in situations where becoming fully licensed is simply not practical or possible, adapt by changing technologies. I see some strain from this occurring in my local club already.
Rocketry isn't going away anytime soon. But it is becoming increasingly a diversified tangle of different directions including a significant amount of return to the amateur rocketry of decades long past. This all ensures the survival of hobby rocketry but it also ensures a never ending cycle of measure and countermeasure. It's basically the messy biological way, not the neat, orderly, categorized system of typical human preference.
That's the supreme irony here: The harder ATF tries to exert control, the more it will lose control.
+McG+
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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

There is a simple remedy to this all. Allow rocketeers to keep reasonable amounts of engines and or engine components on hand to participate in our hobby period.
We all know the gasoline we keep in our garages for our lawn mowers is more dangerous than APCP motors or motor components.
Federal law allows one to keep 50lbs. of BP on hand. Yes I know local laws vary. Ooops I forgot, you have to use it for guns and BP shooting.
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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

Ken, this may have unfolded slower than you thought, but that is typical American application of social engineering. Look at how America has enacted the rule of law in the country -- had they tried to become the Thought Police overnight, the ordinary citizen might have grumbled more than usual. By the incremental erosion of rights, they have systemically installed their controls over us without a major upheaval in the populace at large.
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Darrell D. Mobley wrote:

True. And I'm not in the least bit unhappy about the slow pace.
Because...there is no doubt in my mind that this country is headed straight towards the gates of hell. The only real question I had left was exactly when I should start spelling it Amerika. But that became obsolete when the North American Union was officially ok'ed last month. 2010 and it's not even Amerika anymore. It's already over folks. Party while you still can. Enjoy your Bill of Privileges before even that gets revoked. It's all downhill to the bitter end from here. Unless you like being treated like livestock.
That's the way it looks to me. So I'll fight for my freedom all the way down, through every cycle of measure and countermeasure in rocketry, NAIS(chips for livestock), GPS tracking of my vehicle, privacy, whatever. By 'fight' I mean nonviolent noncompliance with those trying to herd me where they want.
I non-renewed my LEUP a couple years ago. I won't be getting another. I will however as my limited time and money permit go back to working on technologies for hobby rocketry that avoid entanglements with ATF. Until they simply outlaw rockets per se without a federal permit. Then, well, I guess I'll burn that bridge behind me when I cross it.
So the slower it all goes toward totalitarianism, the longer I have to continue pretending I'm a free citizen of a free country. With any luck I'll die of old age first. But somehow I don't think it's going to work out like that. The bastards are winning and good gentle folk are losing most every time now. It's getting harder and harder to tell our bastards from their bastards, the good bastards from the bad bastards.
I just want to live my life and fly rockets in peace. To much to ask, apparently. +McG+
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Ken, the bottom line is that they are all bastards. The North American Union is truly depressive news. And we can all thank the successful dumbing down of Americans and their care-free attitude. What? Me worry?
Worry about that? Ignorance is bliss, and we have a nation full of blissful people. People who get more angry when their football team loses than when the government takes another percentage of their rights.
Err, privileges.
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Welcome to the skatacephalarchy.

sell
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Larry Curcio wrote:

Too many syllables......even dictionary.com chokes on it "No results found for skatacephalarchy."
Netscape ...... "Your search "skatacephalarchy" returned no results. Check your spelling"
Google........"Your search - skatacephalarchy - did not match any documents.
Suggestions:
* Make sure all words are spelled correctly. * Try different keywords. * Try more general keywords."
So now I scratch my head and wonder what in the world skatacephalarchy is besides a word with many syllables, like delicatessen.
Chuck
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