quid pro quo ?

Date: Mon May 22, 2006 11:14 pm Subject: AMA and NAR Sign Agreement on FAI Spacemodeling
I'm happy to report that the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) and
the National Association of Rocketry (NAR) have signed a five year agreement to delegate selected responsibilities for FAI Class S (Spacemodeling) activities to the NAR.
Under the terms of the agreement, the NAR will create a committee to manage the selection and management of FAI Spacemodeling teams. The Committee's Chairman, appointed by and responsible to the NAR Board of Trustees and President, will work to develop formal team selection criteria, and organize the team selection flyoff, next scheduled to occur in 2007. NAR membership will be required to participate in team selection flyoffs.
The NAR will also be responsible for selecting a team manager, who will coordinate with AMA to properly register and transport the team to the World Championship. Both AMA and NAR membership will be required of all team members selected. AMA will retain the voting seat at the FAI Aeromodeling (CIAM) annual meeting. I expect the NAR to be working out further management details over the next year.
Part of the NAR's mission is to push the boundaries of modeling technology, and in my experience, few activities push technology harder than competitive FAI flying. I'm pleased and excited about having the opportunity to once again have the NAR manage FAI Spacemodeling activities. And I strongly encourage NAR members, particularly those currently flying NAR contests, to investigate and become involved in this exciting and challenging part of our hobby.
Finally, my thanks to AMA President Dave Brown for his openness and gracious manner displayed during our discussions of this topic. Also, my thanks for John Langford, NAR International Programs Liaison Chairman, for his role in this historic agreement.
Mark Bundick, President National Association of Rocketry
I was told this doesn't go into effect until June 1st, 2006.
I wonder which model rockety safety code will be in effect at team flyoffs and team practices,etc since a person is required to have dual AMA-NAR membership.
I would like to throw my hat into the ring at this time as FAI Committee Chairman. Mark? are you listening? I'm volunteering here!
terry dean
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shockwaveriderz wrote:

Given all of the hysteria in the prior 'safety code' thread, I'm sure the NAR and FAI team members will back you 100%...
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well at least they would know what they are getting and where I stand now wouldn't they? would that be such a bad thing? Do things above board instead of behind the back in the dark? But I guess thats asking too much? evidently it is...
terry dean

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shockwaveriderz wrote:

Other than spending someone else's money, have you suggested a single alternative course of action?
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rick:
as a matter of fact I have.
My alternative course of action is to follow the applicable laws and do the right thing. Is that so difficult to understand?
I will be the first person to agree that the USA FAI Spacemodeling competitors have been at a severe competitive disadvantage to the rest of the world. I agree with that 100%. I personally want to grow FAi Spacemodleing here in the USA. I have made numerous suggestions and recommendations to do this over the past few years. I have for example called for a FAI National Championships to be held on a yearly basis. I have called for a FAI booth at the TARC finals as they are a key market demographic that might just be interested in the high tech competitive aspect of FAI Spacemodeling. In addition one of the major hurdles to overcome is the costs involved in having to go overseas to participate in the WSMC. From 93-2003 the AM provided partila funding. That funding was cut off in 2002 dues to the bad behavior of certai USA FAI competitors and the fact for the amount of money the AMA was spending on funding, they just wasn't getting the best bang for their buck in terms of getting medals. A booth at TRAC would also place FAI spacemodleing squarely in the sights of the AIA member compnaies and perhaps some sponsorships and funding could be developed there. All of my suggestions and recommendations to help grow FAI spacemodeling in this country have fallen on deaf ears.
So to say that I have not propsed alternative course of action, is just bogus.
terry dean

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shockwaveriderz wrote:

And what would that *right* thing be?
Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75
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ted:
the right thing to do would be to follow the US DOT exploisves testing and NFPA 1125 certfication requirements. We have gone kinda off topic here. The central point is that the czech delta motors aree uncertfied. Nobody is disputing that these motors have never been certfied in this country but the NAR/TRA/CAR. They have not undergone the US DOT explosives testing process which by law they are required to undergo. They also have not been certified by any known testing organization. Its very simple: have the motors go through what every other motor sold in this country have to go through to be legally sold.
terry dean

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says...

A phone call to the AHJ, of course.
--
Tweak

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shockwaveriderz wrote:

Against my better judgement, I've waded into something I know nothing about. My sole purpose was to gently suggest that you might get something other than a deaf ear by refraining from personal attacks on the BOT and FAI team members in a public forum. I know I try to cooperate fully with people who call me a liar (or bogus). NOT!
I hope that a solution to this problem can be found that is within the letter of the law...
Rick
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rick: please point out in my posts where I have made personal attacks on specific NAR BOT members or FAI team. If you can post an example I will apologize immediately. I have done my level best to try and not resort to personal attacks. I may have a laspse of judgement and done just that. I never called you a liar either. What I said, was that your statement was bogus about me not providing any alternative solutions to this problem.
terry dean

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I've been reading this whole thing about NARBOT, FAI, Illegal motors (or not), "personal imports", etc...
Can anyone, in a few paragraphs (without emotion), describe what's going on?
The best I can tell is that the NARBOT authoried some motors to be flown at a NAR event by a few people, and the motors aren't certified by anyone. What is FAI, and where does the Chec Republic come in?
Can I bring a pound of pot into the US and claim that it's a "personal import"? :-)
The best I can tell from this whole discussion, is that the motors are made by someone who doesn't believe in (or cant) be certified, and may have been imported into the US as "model airplane parts" , and flown at NAR events.
All I know, is that if NARBOT has approved the use of motors that were brought into the US under "interesting" conditions, and are being shipped around the US without DOT approval, I hope that fact is never discussed at length on a usenet forum (RMR, for example) , where the BATFE could use it in the the ongoing legal actions!
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shockwaveriderz wrote:

Hardly.
Up until recently, you were ready to run to the federal authorities, setting of an unholy shit-storm, without any idea whether or not you were correct.
You're now playing the "I have private emails" claiming that you're right. Do what you've challenged others to do, and prove your allegations.
This isn't the first time you've gone off and played legal expert on a rocketry related topic, either. Mark Bundick would have to have rocks in his head to put you in a position to facilitate communication between AMA and NAR.
Positions like that, it's imperative to have a level-headed person who can calmly deal with things, and make sure they have their facts straight before they start levelling accusations.
-Kevin
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I have my facts straight. I don't need to produce my emails to prove what I say. The czech delta motor story is a well know dirty little secret to various NAR members for some time, and they have turned a blind eye; just as you and your like turn a blind eye to all the other infrcations that go in this hobby, some I have seen with my own eyes. we all know what I am talking about, therese are this hobby';s other little well know dirty little secrets: like buying black powder for use as an ejection charge, and pretending that its for use in a muzzleloader. Like buying and selling and trading black powder for emayches or selling or trading emtaches, when everybody knows they are supposed to have a leup. Like having thermalite fuse and buying and selling it again when the person is supposed to have a leup.
And there are the other dirt little secertst, where vendors sale J motors to people who are not only not certfied, but aren't even a NAR or TRA member; where ROL allows HPR to potentially be bought and sold without anybody knowing who is on the other side of the transaction; like shipping these motors and other through the USA mails without declaring them as hazmat. This hobby unfortunately attracts thiefs, liars, con artists, scam artists, and those that seem to have no ethical values at all other than the ends justify the means. How many former member of this rocketry community has ended up ripping off others? How many sole propreitorships have come and gone, taking your monies with it.? To many to mention.
And why has the rocketry community came to this sad state of affairs. because evrybody who speaks up against the corruption, who speaks out against potential illegalites, are immediately labeled "enemies of the state of rocketry" and drummed out of the hobby.
This isn't about me. This is about a hobby that I have loved my entire life, only to come back to it 4 years ago and to find out it has been allowed to turn into a vipers nests. No wonder Estes has nothing to do with the NAR anymore. No wonder the BATFe wants to control HPR; You think that they aren't aware of all this ethical corruption?
Kevin, instead of dumping on me , which I know is one of your favorite hobbies, why don't you grow some balls and a backbone an dstand up to some of the corruption in this hobby, that you wink and nod at? thats you turn a blind eye too? No, you'll never do that because you have too many friends that fit the mold of my decriptions above.
And yes I will agree with you that I am not the most level headed person in the world. But look what all the so-cslle level headed people have brought us to. Sometimes you have to tear down the OLD to build the NEW.
terry dean

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How many hobbies have you been in ?
I hope you find that other hobbies could get taken down the path like you do with rocketry.
Please find one soon.
CD
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snipped-for-privacy@unverified.com says...

Be hard pressed to find one as filled with anal-retentiveness as this one, though. All this drama over toy rockets.
I roadrace motorcycles. People are seriously injured and even die on occasion, yet that hobby doesn't have 1/10th of the "drama" of the rocketry community. I have seen guys get knocked off the track at + 100mph by someone else, total a motorcycle and break bones react with less vitriol than a LC reacting to someone who launches a E motor off the C motor rack.
I don't get it...never have, never will.
--
Tweak

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Tweak wrote:

It's the nerd slash wienie factor.
Some people just aren't happy until they're unhappy.
Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75
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Tweak,
it is the Jr. "G" man syndrome
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Tweak,
it is the Jr. "G" man syndrome
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Dang!
Why not just send this rant directly to the BATFE! They'll be reading it here anyway!
(step 1: Get gun. Step 2: aim at foot. Step 3: pull trigger. Step 4: Ask "Why did I shoot myself in the foot?")
"Others don't play by the rules, so why should I?" seems to be the theme of your post. "But, but, but.. John's Mom lets him get away with it!"

I
as
in
little
and
a
to
member;
artists,
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shockwaveriderz wrote:

Oh, I see. Everyone else has to produce evidence, but you don't? SOP.

You have NO clue what many of us do; as usual, you've decided, based on your own little world, that you're right, everyone else is wrong, and you're going to be the savior of the world.
You have zero idea what permits I do or don't have, as well as what I do and don't advocate that people do. Until you can prove that one way or another, I'd suggest you stop making claims.

So, now ROL is supposed to be an enforcement authority? You have zero idea whether or not those transactions are legal.

So, you're going to be the savior of all of us? With your nice, even-keeled, level-headed viewpoint on things? The same one who's already been proven to have his facts screwed up on something nice and simple like which states have adopted NFPA?

Nope, it's about your ego, and the fact that you couldn't possibly be wrong. We don't have to ask you -- you'll tell us.

You have ZERO clue what I do and don't do. Unlike you, I don't feel the need to stand on the roof-tops, pat myself on the back, and proclaim myself the savior of the hobby.
Unlike you, I understand how to work within a system to produce change. I'm not the only one doing it, either. Changes have happened over the years, and they're in the right direction. Of course, working with people isn't your style, and never has been, from the day I've seen you make caustic, abrasive, obnoxious comments on here.

You're right, sometimes you do have to tear down the old to build the new. But that's an extreme case, and throwing the baby out with the bath water isn't prudent.
You get the response you do, exactly because you're NOT level-headed, and you haven't demonstrated any interest in working with people. If you don't get the response you want, you start yelling and screaming and throwing your little tantrums all over the place, along with your game of "You have to provide me evidence, but I don't have you provide you anything."
You want respect? Start acting respectable, and start treating people with respect. The response you get from people is WHOLLY your own doing.
-Kevin
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