OT - Time for the UK to leave the EU?

"William H. Shuey" wrote

You mean act only to protect our own interests?

Bill, that's a real swell idea, but it steadfastly ignores the fact that neither our interests nor the threats against them end at the three-mile limit. MYOB only works when everybody believes in the principle, and never works when somebody else decides that you ARE their business.

KL

No, you drive on the left because you rode horses on the left to keep a knight's weapons side to the outside of the road.....kept testosterone laden fools from having impromtu jousts on the King's roads you know.....

Al, Paris had its part of terrorism... Problem is that the Gulf War is not absolutely connected to the 9-11: this smuttiness of Saddam Hussein has a lot of blood on hands... but not that of the Americans...

How many thousands were killed, and which Parisan landmark was destroyed?

So what? We're in the Middle East in an attempt to drain that festering swamp of tyranny once and for all. Saddam Hussein was unlucky enough to draw the booby prize.

""For 60 years, my country, the United States, pursued stability at the expense of democracy in this region -- here in the Middle East

-- and we achieved neither,"... -- Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice at the American University in Cairo, Egypt, 21 June 2005

or

The United States has many allies on the ground in Iraq. It's long past time for our other traditional allies to join us as well unless they prefer the supposed stability of tyranny over the hard work of democracy.

Al Superczynski vient de nous annoncer :

Then perhaps you should have chosen your words more carefully. I

I believe to understand a big difference between the USA and France but I am maybe wrong: it seems to me that you are much less critical and ironic as regards your government than we are ourselves with regard to our... There is a tradition in France: that to think that the politicians are above all people and that their actions are often centred in the direction of the conservation of their own interests and facts often prove us that we are right... I think that our incomprehensions on the NG, among you and us, come from this difference of culture.

Al Superczynski a formulé ce mercredi :

Are you sure of that ? A lot of gouvernments are against the whishes of their people... Ask to Italia, Spain, and a lot of others...

In fact a lot of your allieds in this war are on the ground because their governments are afraid with USA penalties...

It would probably help that Sweden didn't have 25 million cars on the road.

On the plus side I don't think we would have either, after about 24 hours of carnage and road rage.

I think we should prpbably stick with driving on the "right" side of the road.

Seems to me this thread has turned into:

1. A personal grudge match between a particular gentleman of the French persuasion, and a particular gentleman with American feelings, and
2. A discussion on which side of the road to drive on.

I wonder if this is how Blair and Chirac fell out?

(BTW - the answer is yes.)

Actually, you helped create it by siding with the French in their fight against the Vietnamese. If the US had backed Ho Chi Min from the beginning (as he asked), the French would have huffed and puffed and moved out, Vietnam and the US would have been good friends, and the whole bloody mess in that region would have been far less. Instead the US turned him down, and Ho went to the Russians, who had less qualms about annoying the French.

Loyalty to an earlier ally is all fine and dandy, but that doesn't mean you should back him up when he's about to mess up on a grand scale. A lesson the French have apparently learned.

Rob

I doubt it, but without first hand evidence I can't make a definite statement on this. Neither, I suspect, can you.

Generating wealth is not in doubt, its the going round bit where I have my doubts.

Rob

Not exactly that... USA didn't come to VietNam to help French, but to fight against communism and the USSR and chinese influence in this part of the world because French were not able to win alone...

BTW, is it because yout brother helped you in the past than you must help him to make a bullshit ? The best way to help him is to try to show him he is wrong and to disadvise him to make the bullshit... and that's what France and some other countries tried to do before 2nd Gulf War...

You are correct !! In 1943 1944 when we slowly moving through China, Ho was very impressed with the support the Americans could give.

What made it even worse, was the french re arming the remaining Japanese troops in order to keep law and order till they could bring back a colonial infrastructure. An very personal and real insult to the Vietnamese people...............

Allan

Amazingly enough, I dont consider the french *people* or ANY people on earth as s%#t. What bothers me greatly is a french govt that really isnt even serving it's own peoples interests very well. And the rest of the world at large from the way the french govt act's can obiviously go to hell. What a piss poor attitude from a western nation that has just as much to lose as the UK/USA and everyone else does from terrorism.

But you went anyway, and it was for a good reason. Just like our colation mission in Iraq. We have removed an evil dictator, started a democratic process in Iraq (example to it's neighbors) Freed an oppressed people, and given than chance at self determination. All while removing a present threat from the ME.

And... we have given terrorists the world over a place to come play ball with American/UK, and coalition troops. So far the terrorists are taking a terrific beating, and left to go on long enough, it will cost them leadership/control/recruits. But this will be a LONG road......

More importantly, it's easier for them to go there after us, than come to the USA. Well worth it in the long run..........

With the exception of the Gaurd, all troops over there now, ALL volunteered for the miulitary, and wanted to do this. Again I have talked to many of these young kid's They are all motivated, and moreso, they knew what there were geting into. Our press seems to still have a Vietnam idea of our soldiers, which PO's me to no end !!

How many young soldiers returned from Iraq have you talked to ? I have met quite a few, and when my son was in basic, CIB's where everywhere, and the instructors were/are VERY motivated, as are the recurits.

Untill you are the parent of a young infantryman, you will never understand how I feel.................................

What I have found out is that it's the children of the poor, and the middle class that fight wars to keep the wealthy and those who have never worked hard in their lives safe. (all the rest you too) Make no mistake about it either, they know it................

Allan

Now that is totally false !!!

They are there in hopes of getting rebuilding contracts worth billions in the long run. Even the french were PO'd when the coalition was only going to award contracts to member states who fought there. The french govt. was VERY upset about this. What an irony, they didn't want the war on Iraq, but they were all for making $$$ from it........ (lets not forget the 50 billion in illegal oil contracts signed with SH, MAIN reason they wanted sanctions lifted on Iraq)

You want a REAL reason the people in the ME are anti western ?

Go back around a thousand years or so, an go forward, and look at how the europeans have treated the peoples in the ME and Africa !! Ever since the crusades, the europeans have viewed the ME, and Africa as a resource that they could take/use very cheaply at the local inhabitants expense.

To their (dis) credit, the eorupeans have been very adept and shifting the blame on the USA, and everyone else but themselves.

Allan

No, I think it is more of a case that french and euros in general; are more comfortable with corruption from their leaders than Americans are. (A frenchman actually told me this once !)

How else could you explain the illegal arms sales, the oil for food scandal ands other illegal/immoral activities, that you have NO problem with ?

Allan

AM avait énoncé :

What ????????????? French re armed Japanese troups ????????? Could you tell me where you find that please ?

AM a formulé la demande :

Lol, yes that's natural ! mdr

Not illegal arms sale... oil for food scandal ? Not a French scandal, but an UNO scvandal... immoral activities ? Are you speaking about what happened in US jails against war prisonners ?

You should be easilly able to find that info.

If not, I will go through my famlies book collection (10,000+) and get the info.

From their standpoint, it was the only praticle short term soloution foir the french since they wanted to remain a colonial power...... Law and order over the people had to maintained somehow.

We should have supported Ho..............................

And in Africa, it was the Portuguese, and Belgians (among other euro's) that made it the mess it is today. Yet the euros are masters of shifting attention for the blame elsewhere...........................

Allan

It''s sad thats what it is..........................

How else can you explain the fiber optic commo gear, new bunkers, and rebuilt air defense systems ? A lot of it was of european manufacture.........

And the oil for food scandal seemed to have netted the french ALONE around 4 billion, which of course they have NO intention of paying back.... Is that OK to you ?

??? These people are better treated than they have any right to be.

BTW, there are NO geneva convention rules being broken here, they are ILLEGAL enemy combatants, therefore have NO rights under the geneva conventions. Read the articles sometime. AGAIN, they have no coverage under the geneva conventions at all............. Get something else straight here, they are not POW's !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, US prisons are not a very nice place at all either !!! The idea in life for decent people is to make sure that they never do anything that would put them there !! If you do, than you get what you deserve...................

You have an awfull lot of compassion, just all for the wrong people !

Allan