OT - Time for the UK to leave the EU?

Now, no....

When I was a kid, if you pushed me, yes no question.

Your expiration date is coming, I am patient, you will expire soon enough...................... You don't need any help from me. Nor is it my right.

You are the unhappy one here, not I......................

Allan

Reply to
AM
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Read ther Geneva Conventions sometime. We could have had an instant military tribunial right there in AfghanastanIraq, and exucted them right then and there. All legal under the GC. We really want info, hence our holding them in detention, and treating them well. The reality is that there might come a point where we DO execute them on the battlefield, rather than undergo this insane ridiule by our own press, etc... The Geneva Convention is very clear about these people. They have NO rights under the international *norms* of law. Sorry if that dosnt agree with your belief's..................

Personally I cant understand why people worry about those people captured on the battlefield engaged in military activities illegally. It makes no sense at all...............

Real simple. To illustrate how well off those people are at Gitmo. Prison life in the USA (in general) is not nearly soo nice !!!!!!!!!!!

You want these people *freed* lets do it, just lets release them in your hometown, and give them back they weapons they had at time of capture. Now what do ya think they would do to you ????? Are you armed ? Are you prepared to defend yourself ? My guess is that you would want someone to come get rid of them for you. Welcome to the real world.........................

Your compassion is badly misplaced !!

My heart goes out to the young men and women who have to take care of this trash, and then get ridiculed by people like you..................... (and NEVER forget those who serve/have served PERIOD !!!!!!!!!)

Allan

Reply to
AM

New York is just plain weird.

Reply to
Ron

Nope, I live in a suburb of Washington DC, about 15 miles out. It doesn't improve to any great degree until you're bewteen 75 and 150 miles out depending on which corridor you take. If it's a decent commuting corridor the prices are higher than along the smaller routes.

Reply to
Ron

Reply to
Ron

First, how do you arrive at the conclusion that these people are indeed enemy combatants? On whose say-so? The people who detained them? Odd, that - the US courts recently ruled these people have a right to challenge that allegation (based on a 2005 ruling, pity some of the people had been detained for years prior), yet you seem to think that because someone claims they're the enemy, yadda yadda yadda, that they are.

Second, the argument that oh, you could have been so much worse, is really, really weak. I thought the point wasn't "oh, we're not as bad as X, so leave us alone" but "we're bringing justice and human rights to this region." By the way, the FBI has alleged that detainess in Guantanamo were tortured, there were clear violations at Abu Ghraib, some poor bastard was beaten to death while under US detention - you call THAT treating people well?

Whether or not the Geneva Convention applies to "these people," you have yet to even show these people ARE enemy combatants. You've simply concluded that they are. On what basis?

........

Your argument is totally irrelevant. It doesn't matter how you treat your convicts (although, if the Feds are indeed torturing people in their prisons, that's a real problem), the issue is the treatment of people simply declared "enemy combatants" by unknown parties. One issue really has nothing to do with the other. It's merely a distraction.

By the way, you totally fail to address the issue of these people being detained without access to families, etc.

Don't try to force a choice on me. There are more than two alternatives, the present regime and releasing everyone wholesale. How about actual hearings to determine whether these people are criminals? How about opening the camp up to international agencies for inspection? How about giving the detainees access to their families, and to adequate representation? The detainees could be treated a lot better, a lot more humanely, without causing a security breach. It might actually improve the US's image, too. God knows, it could use some repair.

Oh, lord - pipe down with the hysteria.

I didn't ridicule anyone. I tried to point out, reasonably, what I see as flaws in your argument. Flaws you've yet to address, I might add.

Oh, yay - some cheerleading. Wrap that flag around you a little looser, fella - I think it's choking off the oxygen to your brain.

There - NOW I'm ridiculing someone.

Reply to
Dan

FWIW Two friends of mine are just back from several months in Europe. At dinner last evening the subject of Europe's political maneuvers came up. They had been in France for a while and they said that while it was not a big issue in the press and media, a great many French People they talked with expressed discomfort with the idea that a European Union in which Britain had a large say might be able to drag France into "Ill-conceived American Adventures". Considering the mess coming to light from leaked 10 Downing Street memos, the French probably had this in mind when they went to the poles. To what extent it affected in the final outcome I don't know but it seems conceivable that the Iraqi problem is having effects far beyond Washington.

Bill Shuey

Reply to
William H. Shuey

The so-called Iraq effect is having an impact (even outside of the USA!), but it's only one peice of the puzzle. Much of the debate in the UK and French media is focused more on econmics and the fact that the French leadership have seen their position of "rulers of Europe" challenged by their own citizens. It's the Napolionic ideal by diplomacy rather than conquest - a Europe "united" under French domination. Sadly it didn't work for the little dictator and it isn't working now. The UK along with the new member countries aren't about to stand for the old social model that is biased towards the French. The UK and former communist countries have or aspire to dynamic free market economies and don't share the French supercilious dislike of the USA. (There is a significant anti-American faction in the UK, but importantly the Labour party used to be the leading political manifestation of this dislike. Since Blair "hijacked" the Labour Party and turned it into a post-Thatcher center-right government, this faction has lost much of it's power. Remember in the 1980's Labours opposition to the US stationing cruise missiles at RAF bases?).

The "old" EU has a social rather than economic model. Protectionist and insular support of it's own at any cost. Hence the Common Agricultural Policy that spends 40% of the EU budget to support 5% of the population that produces 2% of the output! The French governement collapse at the merest sugeestionof union unrest, and are happy to let their farmers or fishermen blockade roads or ports if they think they're being diasadvantaged. (Guess who uses France as their main hifghway into Europe?). Can anyone imagine the French reforming their industry like the UK was forced to in the 1980s? That was a hard period but without it we would have gone under. The French leadership will not modernise their economoy to meet the needs of the 21st century if they can help it, and if they can use the EU to bale themselves out all the better. As Blair said this week "...what kind of social model is it that has 20 million people unemployed?..."

IMOHO - apart from geography we have little in common with the rest of the EU. We should negotiate "associate" membership. That would mean we would still contribute financially in order to maintain the advantageous trading arrangements (e.g. single market), but extricate ourselves from the bureacracy and social legislation. The UK should strengthen it's trading links with and be more supportive of the Commonwealth, and enter into stronger trade and political alliances with the rest of the English speaking world e.g. by joining a North Atlantic trading block. We would still be able to trade with the EU, but on similar terms to the rest of the world. I don't believe our best interests are served by allying ourselves to a liberal elite in Brussels.

It's ironic that we are "fighting" the French as we celebrate the 200th anniversary of Trafalgar!

Reply to
Graeme Cosgrove

"Graeme Cosgrove" schreef in bericht news:d9j50n$qu4$1$ snipped-for-privacy@news.demon.co.uk...

Reply to
Bassie Adriaensen

I don't know a lot about the eu per se, but that is an incredible figure !!

Basically what you are saying is that they are throwing 38% of their budget away !!!! Absolutely staggering !!!

How can the eu ever hope to compete with the rest of the world economically ??

Allan

Reply to
AM

Let battle commence.

Reply to
Graeme Cosgrove

You have a better source ? These are people captured on the battlefield engaged in hostile activities against coalition troops. Several that were released from Gitmo have been found back on the battlefield. At least four have been killed on the battlefield after release, several others were re captured.

I bet that is still not enough evidence for you.

You talk big, but you have yet to show that these people were NOT illegal enemy combatants. Do YOU have proof that they are not ? BTW, they still are where they are, so called ruling aside. Do YOU think these people are a threat or not ?

Do believe that the beheading of American, and other people by these terrorists is their treating people well ?

Also BTW, do you have ANY proof of torture ??? ANY ??? (besides a *so called* unreleased report, which has NOT been verified)

You are quick to judge the US system at Gitmo based on unreleased, and or un substantiated report ?

It's one thing to question the *offical* version presented by govt. (we ALL should question our govts) But quite another when you take non verified reports and quite them as truth. You do nothing but show your bias for all to see.

They were caught on the battlefield engaged in illegal armed combat with coalition troops. What more proof do YOU need ? You are concluding that they are innocent without ANY other source to back your claim.................

According to the Geneva conventions, we dont have to give them acces to anyone else period. They are lucky to be alive. The coalition could have very easilly conveaned a tribunal on the battlefield and exucted them. As per the Geneva Conventions which allow this. You must not study history too much, or would realize that we are treating these people far better than any other govt has treated illegal enemy combatants on a battlefield in history ! Do some reading sometime and you will realize how humane the coalition really has been......

So you want to give them the same rights as US citizens ? Last time I checked US laws and the Constitution ONLY apply to US citizens........ They have no rights under international law, and the GC.......... (read; NO person who is NOT a US citizen has these rights !!)

I can see how you are a coward, and afraid of these people. I just dont understand your wanting to kiss their ass. I've heard of brownosers before, but you just want to crawl right up their ass, you love them soo much.................

Comming from a terrorist lover like you, I take that as a complement !

I am glad you are so unhappy about all this, I really am. Reassures me that we are doing the right thing.

Allan

Reply to
AM

It can't. The CAP is run to keep French and Spanish farmers happy not as an economic "strategy".

G
Reply to
Graeme Cosgrove

Sort of like the U.S. welfare system!

Bill Shuey

Reply to
William H. Shuey

Just think of the French vacation time....they get and mostly take 38 days per year! France pretty much closes to outside business for the month of August.

Reply to
Ron

Italy is the same - the hotel we were staying in (long term work thing) shut it's bar, it's resteraunt, and had "short time" staff on. The local resteraunts shut down too, and the factory had to arrange for one bloke to come in during August for us to be allowed in too! This is on the Eurofighter build programme - not exactly on time to begin with! We were going daft! No response to technical queries during August? Good job there wasn't a push on...not!

Europe - great place to visit but you wouldn't want to live there.

G (from GB)

Reply to
Graeme Cosgrove

Hearings have been held and are ongoing. Some detainees have been released. Some have been recaptured after returning to the battlefield...

The ICRC has full access.

Not even legitimate POWs get access to their families other than by mail. The prisoners at Gitmo are allowed mail privileges.

You're kidding, right? Defense attorneys are queuing up to represent them pro bono and the DoD has established guidelines for said attorneys.

That's meaningless. *Everyone* could be 'treated a lot better'.

We're trying. It's difficult to be perfect when human beings are involved on both sides.

Um, that's why they're being held in the first place. Because they're a threat to our security.

It doesn't matter. If we closed the facility at Gitmo we'd just be criticized for somewhere or something else.

Reply to
Al Superczynski

Let me get this straight: according to you, the laws of the USA apply only to US citizens. In other words, should I, a non US citizen, find myself in the USA, the law of the land does not apply to me, and I am neither constrained nor protected by the law.

Now I _know_ you're deranged.

Rob

Reply to
Rob van Riel

US laws, federal, state, and local, apply to all citizens, legal residents, illegal immigrants, and tourists. The last two categories also have most, but not necessarily all, of the same rights.

Reply to
Al Superczynski

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