MDC HO and HOn3 Shays?

On 2/20/2008 4:06 PM jimbol51 spake thus:

Dunno about websites (sure there are some out there), but there've been some good long discussions here on that topic. I guess nowadays you need to use Google Groups (gag!) to see the old posts.

Just be aware that these are notoriously bad operating mechanisms. Really, really, really really, really bad.

Did I mention they operate badly?

On 2/20/2008 4:42 PM jJim McLaughlin spake thus:

They're problematic, to be sure. However, I still intend to put some more hours into mine in hopes of getting it to run at least half-decently.

Now i heard years ago and i also heard that there are mods that will help the operation greatly... anyone... anyone...

On 2/20/2008 6:22 PM Big Rich Soprano spake thus:

Yeah, it's a variation of how my violin-making friend Clarence Shaw told me how to improve a marginal instrument: Take the couplers, bell and whistle off the Roundhouse model. Discard all other parts. Slide another Shay model under these parts (preferably one of the new Bachmanns).

Horizon Hobby Inc. (a distributor) bought Model Die Casting (Roundhouse). They have not reissued the Shay. Go to their website (google on "model die casting roundhouse"), and you will see all their current listings. Quite a few of them are discontinued. You will also find that there are no more kits, and that prices have gone up some.

If you are thinking of acquiring a Shay, I suggest you look at Bachmann's Shay instead, in their Spectrum line. 80 ton, three truck, in several roadnames aand painted/unlettered. Lists at$275, but street price should be at least 30% less. Supposed to be a decent runner.

OTOH, if you really want an MDC Shay, try eBay. Someone may be selling one. IIRC, Northwest Short Line makes or made a regearing kit for them. Keystone Locomotive Works makes a a couple of non-powered Shays that some brave souls have powered.

HTH

I must be a rarity. I've had only moderate dificulties with the HO version for decades. My only real problem was with the trucks coming apart. I ended up wiring them together! No problem since. Mine has great slow speed. It is rather noisy, but, that doesn't trouble me. The Bachmann Shay may be better, I really don't know. Their Climax, however, is a beautiful model. HTH.

Jerry

Can you tell me WHY they operate so badly? jim

When you say problematic in what way(s) specifically? jim

How and with what have the Keystone Shays been powered? jim

Northwest Shortline made (makes?) a powering kit in HO or HOn3. The original NWSL kits used a tiny Sagami 12 mm can motor. When these ceased to be available, NWSL started substituting a small open frame square motor like those used in HO slot cars. Both versions of the NWSL kit include a pair of truck frame / gear boxes, the rear one of which mounts the motor, and a set of universal joints and couplings to connect the power trucks. The arrangement is reminiscent of the old Varney F-3 power train. The motor sticks up through a new hole in the Keystone chassis into the fuel bunker. The rest of the Keystone cab and boiler are unaltered. The big challenge is attaching the Keystone white metal sideframes to the NWSL gearboxes together with enough of the non-operating Keystone Shay line shaft to look convincing. Geezer

The MDC Shay's problems include poorly formed drivetrain parts that take quite a bit of fine tuning to get to work smoothly, and a basic design flaw of using a center Climax type drive train to transmit power to the wheels while keeping a working Shay type line shaft, so that unless both drive trains are precisely in phase, they fight each other causing constant binds. Most successful MDC Shay projects wind up making the Shay lineshaft "freewheel" to break the mechanical "closed loop".

If you are seriously thinking about the MDC Shay, I suggest you obtain one of the books that have been published on how to get it to work. I like "The MDC Shay Handbook" by Jeff Johnston from Oso Publishing, ISBN 0-9647521-1-5. There are other books about the MDC Shay, but some, such as the Modeler's Handbook from Single Shot Gallery, are more about detailing the locomotive than improving its operation.

I also understand that MDC start including a much better motor in Shay kits released after mid-1995. If you do decide to obtain one, look for one of the later kits. Geezer

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Really ticking off those of use who were hard core MDC/Roundhouse loco builders, who do NOT want to be paying $200.00+ for a $65.00 kit just because someone else built it and added DCC w/Sound.

Len

The problem is that there are a lot of li'l cast parts in the (dummy) external gear train, which must be cleaned and assembled. (The Model Railroader review mentioned this as a difficulty in assmbly, BTW.) Precision is therefore not guaranteed, and the dummy gear train could bind. So could the main gear train. A common fault with MDC at the time was poorly made gears in the (actual) drive train. Eg, I had a boxcab whose drive gear was bored off-centre! Wouldn't run at all. I rebuilt the Roundhouse 0-6-0 for the Edmonton Model RR Club in the 1960s - had to order a new driver set, as one of the wheels was mounted off centre, too. Caused an amusing duck-like waddle. After careful deburring of axle slots, side-rod holes, etc, the engine ran sweetly, but it took a lot of work. I must have taken it apart and reassembled it a dozen times. Certainly felt that way. ;-) Tyco/Mantua had similar problems, but at least their gear trains usually only needed a few hours running in (followed by disassembly and cleaning.)

One of the things that old timers will rarely tell you is that many (most IMO) of those diecast kits offered in the 30s-70s were poorly made, with enormous amounts of flash, parts that didn't fit well, mechanisms that were average at best, and detail parts that often were vaguely shaped lumps of something or other. The amazing thing is that so many buyers persevered. I didn't. I have a partly built Bowser Challenger kit (it cost the equivalent of about $400 in today's money.) Why didn't I finish it? Because the axles bind, despite several attempts to loosen them up. I gave up when I realised that I couldn't guarantee uniformly enlarged bearings. The bearings are U-shaped bits of brass, which need to be reamed. But they aren't circular to start with, so reaming them accurately is a matter of luck. Well, I suppose I could assemble the mech, put some lapping compound in the bearings, put the frame on blocks and apply power for half an hour or so... H'm. ;-)

IOW, the Good Old Days weren't.

Well, even $65 for the kit is overpriced IMO. Especially since the dies have long since been paid amortised.

The only problem with Jeff Johnston's book is the price.........it is going for a minimum of $200 on ebay. If you consider the cost of the MDC Shay kit add to that the book add to that the supplemental materials that everybody is mentioning.........the cost to get this Shay functioning is going to top at least $600 or so...........still worth monkeying with one of these MDC Shays then? jim

"Wolf K." wrote

First basic rule of Capitalism: "Charge all that the market will bear. Not one penny more or one penny less".

Would you like fries with that?

You "need" the new model.

"Greg Procter" wrote

As soon as someone comes up with a "new model" that actually works -and that's based on the realities of human nature, as is our present system- you be sure and let us know.

BTW: don't bother with anything along the lines of Socialism, which begins with the wish-fulfillment premise of "Oh, if only everyone would behave the way I think they should, this would be a perfect world"...