OT curt



Shutup Curt. It's sunday- go play with the alter boys. Unless you can help with finding someone's home address in 10 minutes we really don't want your input in this thread anymore.
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Nice try 'Brad'. Wrong. Sorry.

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You should be sorry. Learn to quote correctly for christ's sake Curt.
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wrote:

It probably applies to many MS-Windows machines which *never* get any hardware changes. The flip side is that *Linux* actually supports MORE hardware than either MacOSX OR MS-Windows, out of the box. Under MS-Windows much of the hardware beyond the bare basics (cpu, memory, and *standard* I/O devices (base IDE, serial/parallel ports, keyboard/mouse) requires a third-party driver installed. Linux often has the drivers included as part of the base system installation for these devices. This means that installing a new card just means installing the hardware and starting the machine. The new card will get detected during the boot up and will get configured, without needing to install ANY additional software (unless some additional applications or libraries are needed for some reason). MS-Windows detects the new hardware and then wants to install a new driver from some external media (CD-ROM).
About Macs: Macs for the most part come with all of the extra hardware goodies (like firewire, network, etc.) included and integrated (and set up at the factory). PCs tend not to include all of the goodies.

Generally yes -- ALL O/Ss are this way.

(Yes I meant malware.) And MS-Windows is the *only* system subject to viruses, adware, spyware, other malware. Really. There are no Linux viruses (outside a highly contrived laboratory ones). Yes there are various network attacks, but none are self replicating and none are in the form of E-Mail attachments or modified programs (i.e. they are not self-spreading). And adware / spyware just does not exist -- the Linux system protection model just won't support that sort of software.

Your understanding is wrong. UNIX file systems don't need 'maintenance', except in very special cases (such as a news spool where huge numbers of small files (news articles) are created and deleted). Under most normal operating conditions, the only thing you need to do is perform backups. 'Fragmentation' happens (and under UNIX is actually a good thing), but does not affect performance unless/until the file system becomes > 90% full. (If a file system grows to 90+% used (and there are not a significant amount of junk to be deleted), then the cure is a newer, biger file system.) In other words, the only 'maintenance' would be replacing old (small) disks with newer (bigger) ones as the disks begin to wear out. The only time I've had to reformat a disk was if I was cleaning off a Zip cart or doing a (major) O/S upgrade (it is quicker to reformat than to tediously delete every file and directory). And I've *never* bothered to defrag a UNIX file system.
What happens with the FAT file system (and to some extent NTFS) is different, particularly in light of how MS-Windows does disk I/O. The FAT (including VFAT and FAT32 -- they all use the same file allocation scheme) was *originally* intended for floppy disks. Fragmentation of a 360K floppy is a non-issue, since one does not use a floppy for a live read-write disk -- it is used as a transfer or backup medium. Using ext2 or ext3 (the two most common Linux file systems) on a floppy wastes too much of the floppy to be 'cost effective'. The FAT file system developes fragmentation rapidly and performance drops off rapidly with fragmentation, even when the disk is mostly empty.
UNIX systems, expect and depend on disk 'fragmentation' and performs disk I/O in a way that is optimal for a 'fragmentated' file system, so long as there is enough free space available. Unix is a true multi-user / multi-tasking operating system, designed from the ground up as such. In a multi-user / multi-tasking environment fragmentation is unavoidable, so UNIX file systems and disk I/O methods were developed to be optimal under such conditions. MS-Windows is designed as a single-user / single-tasking operating system and does its I/O in a way that is optimal for a non-fragmentated file system, and the file system formats are not designed to be optimal for a multi-user / multi-tasking operating system and are not tolerant of fragmentation. NT is meant to be multi-tasking and multi-user, but most of Microsoft's application base (eg MS Office, etc.) are designed around a single-user / single-tasking environment, so MS-Windows 2K (NT 5.0) and MS-Windows XP (NT 5.1) have be 'hacked' to continue the single-user / single-tasking O/S model of the DOS based systems (Win 3.1/Win95/Win98/WinME) to continue to be 'compatible'. I expect MS-Windows Vista is the same.

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Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software -- Linux Installation and Administration
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Robert Heller spake thus:

[...]
Sp Unix uses, what--scatter/gather-type disk I/O schemes? (I remember Adaptec used to support that method with their PC SCSI adapters.)
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wrote:

It is explained extremly well here:
http://geekblog.oneandoneis2.org/index.php/2006/08/17/why_doesn_t_linux_need_defragmenting

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Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933
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On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 07:04:43 +0100, Robert Heller wrote:

Well, uh, my over two year old HP laptop has firewire and wireless networking, etc., and hte only part I had to set up was selecting passwords and channels for the WiFi. Not that I'm defending Gates, or Intel for that matter, as mine is an AMD-64. It also has a fantastically sharp and bright 1920x1200 15.4" screen.
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Higher end laptops do tend to have the 'extras'. How many PC *motherboards* have *firewire* on board?

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Robert Heller spake thus:

You should ask that question 6 months or a year from now.
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Robert Heller wrote:

About 30%, if Tigerdirect's listing is an accurate sample.
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Would these users have been able to set up these Linux boxes without your help? Can they upgrade or change their systems without your help? ( excluding possiblity under either OS for an uneducated 'admin' to goof the system) Jb
<big snip>

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Can most people who buy Windows boxes set them up without someone else doing it for them?

For applications it pretty straight forward:
cd <package dir>/<desired package> make install
Pretty straight forward. On rare occasion there may be a kernel update that might be slightly more complicated.
So it boils down to: do you want someone else to do it and probably pay them for it (those preinstalled M$ boxes have some installation cost factored in somewhere). Or do you want to spend some of your time and do it yourself? It's not that difficult.
I'm not suggesting that one of the *ixes is for everyone. If you are happy with M$ then you are happy, enjoy *8^) You are going to be investing time and/or money either way.
Paul

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Paul Newhouse spake thus:

They don't need to. Nowadays, if one goes into a big-box store and plunks down money (or plastic) for a computer, it comes with Windows pre-installed and ready to go. NO CONFIGURATION NEEDED. Plug stuff in (connectors all have helpful little logos engraved on them), power up and there you are.
You may be thinking of the Bad Old Days, when users had to do a lot of tweaking even with supposedly "RTR" systems.
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Didn't Dell sell pre-configured Linux boxes?
BUT, you missed the point, somebody set that M$ system up. You are paying someone to have done that. The cost gets amortized across a lot of machines so it's a fairly small cost per machine but, it's in the purchase price somewhere.
Somebody got the XP (or what ever) license and the software and installed it on that system.

*8^) I've noticed the little logos don't disappear when I install one of the free ixes. Connecting the hardware is only a problem when the hardware needs some M$ proprietary driver. M$ was so ontop of the market that they didn't recognize the end of the modem era when they got into the winmodems. I do confess I like their keyboards. *8^))

Like last year when my wife decided to upgrade to XP. That was fun ... NOT! Well, OTOH, I did get a great upgrade to my unix systems. She got a new machine and I got her old one. It wasn't qualified for XP but, NetBSD runs great on it, thank you Microsoft! *8^>
Paul
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At Sun, 04 Feb 2007 07:22:12 -0000 snipped-for-privacy@pimin.wan.vpn (Paul Newhouse) wrote:

Yes. I believe they still do (higher end workstations and some servers). Not that Dell did a particularly good job of it. While I was at UMass we bought some Dell boxes with Linux pre-installed and I ended up re-installing Linux on them anyway, mostly because we needed them set up with a different partitioning scheme.

Exactly.
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My guess is that many of the pre-installed Microsoft systems aren't configured very well for the particular user who buys it. They just don't know enough about it to realize the situation.
And, how fixable/configurable are the Microsoft systems? They strike me as one size almost fits all solutions. I love Microsoft help. In most cases it doesn't, you just get some useless factoid that is loosely related to the help keyword.
Paul

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At Sun, 04 Feb 2007 19:16:27 -0000 snipped-for-privacy@pimin.wan.vpn (Paul Newhouse) wrote:

http://www.netscrap.com/netscrap_detail.cfm?scrap_idp4
Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933 Deepwoods Software -- Linux Installation and Administration http://www.deepsoft.com/ -- Web Hosting, with CGI and Database snipped-for-privacy@deepsoft.com -- Contract Programming: C/C++, Tcl/Tk
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*8^) Even worse than I was suggesting.
You often get much less than you pay for.
Paul
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Paul Newhouse wrote:

[...]
Not only did, does.
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Cool enough. I never got into linux so I was curious what it was like.
newswha: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com...

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