Weird Ebay Auction Again

How many shysters can dance on the head of a pin?

Steve Caple wrote in news:1wr7qgu8kyk1d $.u5qvi8qcpxak$. snipped-for-privacy@40tude.net:

Are you accusing me of somehow acting in an unethical way ? If so, feel free to spell it out clearly.

For the record : I have _never_ engaged in trying to inflate the price of anything I have sold by unethical means, and I have no intention of ever doing so.

My culture has had a saying for a millenium or so : "Cattle die, kinsmen die, you yourself will likewise die. One thing never dies: The verdict on each man dead".

Your mileage may vary ...

Stein

I hadn't observed that person or anyone else accusing YOU of ACTING in an unethical way, but it is open to people to interpret what you wrote as supportive of others acting in an unethical way, viz. attempting to subvert open competition amongst genuine bidders by the introduction of non-genuine bidders. So clear the air by a specific answer, please: do you or do you not believe it is "ethical" for non-genuine bidders to participate in an auction for the prime purpose of inflating the price paid by genuine bidders?

Eddie Oliver wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:

Of _course_ it is highly _unethical_ to try to inflate prices by pretending that there are more bidders than there really are. Nobody in this debate is condoning or supporting such behavior.

But does it follow from that that we should feel great pity for people who have managed to reach adulthood _still_ thinking that they somehow are _entitled_ to "a saving" or "a good offer" ?

That it is the responsibility of the rest of the world to look out for their interests ?

Even if they haven't bothered invested enough of their own time and effort to transform themselves from "uninformed bidder" to "informed bidder"?

No.

The old vikings (who lived in a pre-internet society ....) understood this simple philosophy a millenium ago: You should act ethically yourself, but you should not be so naive that you assume that everybody _else_ also will act ethically.

Or in more modern terms: In the _real_ world, shit happens. Naivety is cute in infants, but adults better be prepared to deal with the shit. Think of it as evolution in action.

Clear enough ?

Stein

Very clear. So on the same reasoning, we should have no pity for anyone who is the victim of any criminal behaviour because they should have known to keep out of the way?

And answer another question, please. Now that you declare that there are indeed unethical traders on ebay, should any action be taken against them or should they be allowed to continue on their merry way because it is up to the other participants to adjust?

No, it is not "ethical" for some low life to do that.

If I was bidding on an item, and if some person was bidding up the price, the first thing I would do is retract all my bids, inform the seller, flame the offender and report him and lay a complain to ebay.

Alan

So it's not ok to do something immoral, but if people are being victims of this immoral activity then we should just brush it off and push the blame onto the victims for being targets of unethical behavior. Hmmm wouldn't that in itself be unethical?

The market is not obligated to 'give you a saving'. However that's completely different than having two people work in conjunction to make somebody else pay more than they should. In the end if the buyer wants to spend $50 on a $5 item then that is their right. However for somebody else (shiller) to coerce a buyer to buy something at $50 when a legit auction would only sell the item at $10 then you're defrauding the buyer. And shrugging your shoulders and saying 'don't worry about it' is the same as condoning the crime. The evaluation of value (how much a buyer is willing to spend and or do research on ) is totaly independant of shilling (the scam of artificially inflating a price). If an unformed buyer goes into a auction and overbids because they did not do their research, it is their fault - no victim. If an uninformed buyer goes into a shilled auction and overbids because a shiller overinflates the price then it is the shiller/seller's fault - buyer is victim. Would be same if seller was advised to under price their item so buyer could artificially spend less than market value - seller is victim. Caveot emptor, yes but that still does not absolve us all from trying to create a fair marketplace. It's an issue of stopping criminal behavior, not preventing human error. The ancient romans had coluseums where people were killed for sport/pleasure. Careful of who you use as your moral compass. Jb

Well, if it was the Shyster that I once saw (Shyster branded HD forklift), that had better be a big pin.....

Alan

Snip:

Question -- how would you know the bidder was a shill? He could very well be legit and be thinking the same of you. I guess you could look things up and if you saw he was winning auctions form a seller but not the one leaving the feedback you could be suspicious -- that's a lot more detective work than I'd ever want to do and you probably wouldn't find much anyway. I never worry about shills since I always bid my maximum and use the proxy. If I win I win and if I lose I lose, simple as that. If someone is bidding the price up it is usually a "chipper" who is legit rather than a shill, so, if you carried out the threats you make above without some solid proof -- wouldn't that be harassment?

J.Bright

Eddie Oliver wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:

That is not "the same reasoning". That is what is known as a "strawman argument".

It is damned easy to not become a "victim" of shill bidding. Just stop bidding when you reach the price you believe is the maximum the object is worth.

Nobody is pulling a gun on you, _forcing_ you to do something you don't want to do.

I have declared nothing of the kind. I have said that adults should know that you cannot trust _everybody_ else to be honest people.

I do not know whether there actually _are_ unethical traders on eBay.

But it certainly seems likely that there probably would be unethical traders on eBay, just as there are unethical traders pretty much everywhere else humans trade.

If you can _prove_ that someone is acting in a way that is contrary to the rules on eBay, then by all means feel free to throw the rule book at them or to blow the whistle on them or whatever.

If not, quit bellyaching and get on with your life. Any more questions, or can we get back to model railroading ?

Stein

"J Barnstorf" wrote in news:HM11h.220036$R63.74159@pd7urf1no:

You seem to have trouble with your quoting style. Top posting fixed.

This seems to be hard for some people to understand: it is quite possible to blame _both_ people who engange in shill bidding _and_ people who seem too dumb to talk and walk at the same time.

If you of your own free will _choose_ to do something that is less than bright,like bidding more for for an item than what you think it is worth, then I reserve my right to think of you more as a "dumb fool" than a "poor innocent victim of vicious crime".

I don't think you will succeed in stopping either : the human species will probably always contain a significant number of both criminals and fools.

But good luck to you in your most noble crusade against the evil & vicious crime of shill bidding on eBay.

Now, there is a fair sized leap of imagination. Congratulations - I think that was the most inane comment thus far in this particular debate.

Grin, Stein

You mean they want it more than you do!?

Sore loser!!

Of what!? "WAYYYYY WAYYYYY someone is bidding more than I want to pay WAYYYYY WAYYYYY". Sore loser!!!

Who will probably report you to Ebay with cause (they'll just include your flame). Sore loser!!!!

HA!! HA!! HA!! And Ebay will do what!? If anything they are going to take action against you. Most likely you will get an automated boiler plate response explaining how auctions work. Sore loser!!!!!

I'll post any way I please. I have no trouble with it at all. Does my posting style displease you? And if that's what you think is imporant then you're just fishing for irritation.

Being dumb is a crime? Such boundless compassion.

Agree. Still doesn't make shilling any more moral. By shilling you are trying to trick somebody into thinking that the inflated price is what the item is worth. Thus by definition you can't call them a dumb fool, uneducated and duped yes.

Time for a new species, or a more enlightned way of thinking.

Yes, it is noble isn't it. Imagine a peacable kingdom. No, I have no such expectation. I'm simply saying that shilling is immoral and turning the other cheek is condoning it. Me thinks you protest too loudly. A case of guilt perhaps?

Not much of a leap of imagination at all. Who spoke in latin? Obviously this degraded into the typical pissing match on mrm...

"J Barnstorf" wrote in news:b7f1h.217471$1T2.26186@pd7urf2no:

Neither one of us, but I guess you came closest, dearie. If you go back a few posts, you will notice that I just wrote "buyer beware" in plain English. You were the one who then _attempted_ to write correct latin in article news:HM11h.220036$R63.74159@pd7urf1no:

--> Caveot emptor, yes but that still does not absolve us all

--> from trying to create a fair marketplace

"Cave_a_t emptor", btw. Not Cave_o_t emptor. But enough of this nonsense. Time to discuss something related to model railroading instead.

Grin, Stein

Hmmm..."Caveat, Emptor and Western"...sound like a good name for a private RR...

Paul, this kind of post will get you labeled as a troll with his gums flappin in the breeze, but first things first, number one, I don't participate in ebay auctions and likely never will, number two, if I see something that I want and if it has the "buy it now" option, it's mine on the spot.

Alan

Been called much, MUCH worse BUT, if I'm the troll we'll have to come up with a new term for your nonsense reasoning.

Utter nonsense!!! I always put the teeth in before posting!!

Haven't purchased much on E-bay myself. As for the "buy it now" option I always check with The Train Shop first and they have always been more competative on price ... even after sales tax.

Paul