BR Crimson Coaches ( 1950's)

I wasn't born, you're both old fogies :-)

There was an article in one of the more enthusiast mags (Backtrack?) a few years back, possibly by David Jenkinson or Bob Essery, IIRC the conclusion was that Midland, LMS and BR maroon were near enough the same colour but that the Midland achieved a deeper finish. The grey wagons used a lead based paint which weathered rather a lot, in part due to all the sulphur in the air, however the MR reputedly used a slightly different white paint which remained clearly visible much longer than other companies white (again I think it was Mr Essery who suggested this, something about 'self cleaning paint' was suggested IIRC, not impossible if there were some form of sacrificial element in the mox but there were also enamel type paints available which had a high gloss finish, so they may have used that, I have no idea, just passing on what I heard).

HTH

Mike

This a favourite hobby-horse of mine. All engines are gloss unless they are weathered. No engine has ever been outshopped in matte paint except in wartime.

(kim)

You surprise me. I always thought LMS Crimson was more akin to Post Office Red? A painting of a Jubilee in a local art gallery and prints of a Claughton in a local souvenir shop show them that way as also does the article on the Euston-Birmingham express in the August-September BRM. That contrasts with a picture of the Royal train in the latter issue in which "Duchess of Sutherland" is a much darker Maroon despite having a high gloss finish. Then again, what is the point of having suburban coaches in BR Crimson if it's exacty the same shade as BR Maroon?

(kim)

"kim" <

I'm in a discussion about finishes on a North American group I belong to.

We are almost all agreed that a gloss finish on a model, even fresh out of the shops, looks wrong. A satin finish looks a lot better for a freshly shopped loco or passenger vehicle while matte is best for all freight cars and anything else out of the shops for more than a few weeks.

-- Cheers Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway

I saw the last Coronations in the 60's in my spotting days, when six of them were still kept at Camden, then Willesden. They were all well-weathered, and two of them were red. The red ones were definitely crimson, and nothing like the carriages' maroon colour.

Hope this helps!

Cheers, Steve

"Steve W" wrote

I was spotting during the same era and saw the last Princess Coronations at Willesden in 1963 including the last red example. Memory is such that I couldn't say whether they matched the coaching stock or not. Kids didn't take much notice of coaching stock in those days - there were still enough locos around to keep one's interest sustained. :-)

John.

No, nothing like post office red, that's more akin to the signal red used on buffer beams.

You can't rely on paintings or prints at all.

BR Crimson was a much lighter red than the later maroon, more like you post office red in fact.

THe BR Maroon was specifically intended to be the former LMS red which inturn was supposed to be the same as the Midland Red. The differences relate to the changes in paint technology over the years as well as the cost of labour eliminating most of the undercoating rubbing down and varnishing etc originally practiced. The BR Coronations (and Warships and Westerns) were nominally the same colour as the coaches.

There are plenty of reference books illustrating these liveries, look for books by Brian Haresnape.

Keith

Make friends in the hobby. Visit Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.

I have a picture of 46240 taken at Willesden shed in 1963 and it looks Maroon but the picture is very dark so it could be a trick of the light.

An old codger I met in the library told me something similar.

(kim)

Something to do with scale I believe, a very glossy loco seen in real life from a distance does not look as shiny as a model viewed at the same scale distance because the 'shinyness' is affected by real distance, I would agree that satin is probably the best compromise (unless you modelling the bigger scales, where it seems less of a problem)

Mike

A newly cleaned, preservation or royal loco looks shiny from any distance. Since many "limited editions" are of such and are more likely to be displayed on a shelf than on a layout they should be finished in true gloss and not matted down.

(kim)

No, don't agree (unless it is reflecting direct sunlight in your direction). Lustre is affected by distance, hence the scaling and dulling needed when modelling. Are you sure your brain isn't conning you just because you know the loco is shiny close up?

A good example of this is the all-too-common London buses on some out-of-the-box 00 or N layouts which look ridiculous in full gloss (along with too clean and shiny everything else on the street).

But personal choice at the end of the day, especially for showcase cabinet models.

I remember seeing an English Electric Type 4 1Co-Co1 waiting at the station from a considerable distance and just how shiny and green it was. (They must have cleaned diesels in those days). My old Brush Type 2 model is also gloss and I didn't even notice till someone drew my attention to it. I admit the majority of locos were filthy and should be weathered as such but not with a uniform satin sheen finish.

kim

"kim" wrote

Satin looks better than gloss on a model in my opinion, and we're only talking opinions here.

If you're so convinced your gloss locos look the business then that's all that matters Kim. Just don't expect me to finish my locos in gloss.

John.

At present I don't have the choice. I can buy a RTR 00 model in lightly weathered (ie satin) or heavily weathered finish. I cannot buy a RTR 00 model, even a model of a preservation loco, in its original pristine gloss finish despite numerous requests from collectors to produce them. That might explain why many collectors are prepared to pay extra for 0-gauge tinplate or early Hornby-Dublo.

(kim)

"kim" wrote

Never had anyone in my shop ask for a gloss finished model, and if they did I'm sure we'd be happy to point them in the direction of an aerosol of gloss varnish! ;-)

That might

I have a fairly extensive collection of O-gauge tinplate, but I've acquired it because I like toys, and for investment potential. Certainly not because I can't buy ready-to-run OO-gauge models with a gloss finish.

John.

Which would immediately destroy the value of the model to a collector.

I was thinking more in terms of Bassett-Lowke, Ace Trains, etc. As far as I know these are produced exclusively in gloss finish. I am thinking this is because they are bought chiefly for display and not for running on a layout. The factory-built kits from DJH and similar are also normally offered in gloss 'though I'm sure they'd weather them if requested.

(kim)

"kim" wrote I was thinking more in terms of Bassett-Lowke, Ace Trains, etc. As far as I know these are produced exclusively in gloss finish. I am thinking this is because they are bought chiefly for display and not for running on a layout. The factory-built kits from DJH and similar are also normally offered in gloss 'though I'm sure they'd weather them if requested.

(kim)

Do you know, Thinking back to the 5 + years I worked in a model shop, not once do I remember a customer (and we did have one or two strange ones - some no longer with us, god bless em) asking for a gloss loco? have Hornby or Bachmann started catering for the minority?

Or is it that DJH, Bassett-Lowke etc are Metal locos rather than plastic (sorry - injection moulded) and it takes a gloss finish like the real thing much better? Gloss varnishing coloured plastic (as many models still are) looks like.... er.... Gloss varnished plastic... (Yes, I know some ARE painted).

Come one chaps, just agree to disagree that you have different choices on what you have in a cabinet... I'm sure I'm not the only one bored about this... We know a real loco is shiny when new, but the paintwork fades.... I would want the faded look, as having seen the "fresh from the shops" look on the real thing (80136 in 1998) it shows up all the weld marks inside the side tanks and places all the "warts and all" on display, no matter how good the painter!

TTFN

Andy